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Storing fountain pens with ink in them?



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 13th 06, 06:19 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
BL
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Posts: 190
Default Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

virgiliopoeta wrote:

Actually, gold hit an intraday high of over $800
back in 1981...


Who the heck is talking about 1981? We're discussing fluctuations in
the price of gold during the heyday of fountain pens.

You are perhaps using the US government's
inflation figures, which are notoriously
understated for political reasons. If you will
compare the prices for yourself, you will see that
my estimate is roughly correct.


So you say.

Naturally it all depends on what you choose for
the comparison, but the usual goods and services
follow the estimate I have given.


So you say. But, as usual, you provide absolutely no support for this
assertion.

I am really not interested in discussing this
further with you...


Dang it! I thought I might actually get you to disclose some of your
sources... and the names of all those cognowhachamacallits you
referred to earlier.

... I think perhaps you are a teenager ...


Well, you've said it, therefore it must be so. I'm a teenager. And
gold cost $1500/ounce (adjusted for inflation) during the heyday of
fountain pens. And the convention of carrying pens nib up originated
to prevent corrosion to nibs rather than to prevent leaking. And
soaking entire pens (barrels and caps) doesn't pose significant risks
to metal pen parts and some plastics. And good examples of hard rubber
pens are rare. And carbolic acid (phenols) used as a preservative in
inks are bad for fountain pens. And if you don't believe all this
stuff, just look up vigiliopoeta's posts in the archives. -- B


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  #22  
Old November 13th 06, 07:04 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
jon fabian
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Posts: 15
Default Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

In article .com,
"virgiliopoeta" wrote:

Gold was around $20 until FDR devalued the dollar


In fact gold was _exactly_ $20.00 / ounce for as long as the United
States' currency was based on the gold standard. Anyone trying to sell
bullion for more would have a hard time of it when anyone could waltz
into a bank with 80 silver quarters and walk out with a shiny $20.00
gold piece (the "Double-Eagle") which weighed exactly one ounce. There
was no free market in gold until after it was no longer in common use as
currency. Huckleberry Finn's $20.00 gold piece was worth exactly the
same as Woodrow Wilson's 40 years later.

And since no US currency has ever been recalled or discontinued you can
waltz into any Federal Reserve Bank with a Double Eagle and sashay out
with a crisp new $20.00 bill.

What any of this has to do with pens is beyond me but hey, I figured I
was missing out on some fun.

Jon

--
jon fabian
looked good on paper
f a b i a n "at" p a n i x "dot" c o m
  #23  
Old November 13th 06, 08:10 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
Barutan Seijin
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Posts: 51
Default Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

Am 13 Nov 2006, jon fabian schrieb:


Gold was around $20 until FDR devalued the dollar


In fact gold was _exactly_ $20.00 / ounce for as long as the United
States' currency was based on the gold standard.


Sure, but the gold standard corresponds more to the age of dip pens
and quills than fountain pens.

Even if you consider the end of Parker 75 production to mark the end
of the age of fps, most of the fountain pen era still lies on this
side of the New Deal.



--

  #24  
Old November 13th 06, 08:48 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
jon fabian
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Default Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

In article ,
Barutan Seijin wrote:

Sure, but the gold standard corresponds more to the age of dip pens
and quills than fountain pens.


The official US gold standard was from 1900 till 1933. This was
certainly the "golden age" of safeties, eyedroppers, crescent-fillers,
sleeve-fillers and the like. Don't forget Mark Twain shilled for the
Conklin Crescent Filler. Mont Blanc's safeties in the 1920s were well
within Germany's Gold Standard period (starting in 1871, ending in
disastrous inflation). As is always the case with strategic metals, wars
had a disruptive effect on the availability of non-monetary gold.

But I'm just a li'l ol' pen collector, what do I know about economics?

Jon

--
jon fabian
looked good on paper
f a b i a n "at" p a n i x "dot" c o m
  #25  
Old November 13th 06, 07:08 PM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
BL
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Posts: 190
Default Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

"jon fabian" wrote:

What any of this has to do with pens is beyond me
but hey, I figured I was missing out on some fun.


Hiya Jon... The historical-price-of-gold discussion arose when, in an
attempt to support his assertion that "gold alloy was reserved for the
very best pens," virgilio stated, "Gold was VERY dear back then, you
know - at least $1500/oz in current dollars." I pointed out a few
problems with his $1500/oz figure and also mentioned that one finds
gold alloy nibs on all manner of vintage pens including student pens
(e.g., Conklin's Student Specials, Sheaffer's student pens), economy
pens (e.g., Ingersoll DollarPens, Diamond Points, the Sears brand
Diamond Medals, many Wearevers, no name pens, etc.), second-tier and
lower pens (like WASPs, Conklin All Americans, Parker Thrift-Time
pens, Swallows, etc.), and even some novelty pens. So that's how we
got onto that subject.

Apart from that, though, there's been some really interesting stuff
bandied about the board lately... For example, did you know that good
examples of hard rubber pens are rare? Yep... You've been missing out
on tons o' fun. -- B


  #26  
Old November 13th 06, 10:49 PM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
virgiliopoeta
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Default Storing fountain pens with ink in them?


jon fabian a écrit :

In article .com,
"virgiliopoeta" wrote:

Gold was around $20 until FDR devalued the dollar


In fact gold was _exactly_ $20.00 / ounce for as long as the United
States' currency was based on the gold standard.


I believe it was actually $19 and so many cents, but close to $20. The
government made a few percent seigneurage, you know. But I agree that
this has very little to do with pens, especially since gold was far too
dear to use much of it in fountain pen nibs..

  #27  
Old November 14th 06, 12:32 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
BL
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Posts: 190
Default Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

virgiliopoeta wrote:

... gold was far too dear to use much of it in
fountain pen nibs..


Virg... Well, I don't know how to break this to you, but they used
more gold on fountain pens back then than we do now. Back then, for
example, they often (not always of course) used rolled gold/gold fill
instead of plating for trim. Nowadays you rarely see fountain pens
with rolled gold trim. And I've been meaning to ask you, just how much
gold (in weight) do you think a 14k fountain pen nib contains anyway?
You know, we're not talking about massive quantities of gold. I don't
have a scale sensitive enough to weigh any of my gold nibs, but I can
tell you they weigh very, very little. And if you consider that 14k
gold contains only about 58% gold, then it shouldn't surprise you that
so many pens back then (including student pens, economy pens, no
namers, etc.) came with gold alloy nibs. I mean, gold is about $600 an
ounce now, but I can buy an entire nib assembly for a Namiki Vanishing
Point (complete with 14k nib, feed, and converter/cartridge housing)
for about $19.00--and that's an entire assembly, not just the nib, and
that's my price. You can bet the manufacturer's cost is far less. --
B



  #28  
Old November 14th 06, 01:23 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
Barutan Seijin
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Posts: 51
Default Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

Am 13 Nov 2006, jon fabian schrieb:



In article ,
Barutan Seijin wrote:

Sure, but the gold standard corresponds more to the age of dip
pens and quills than fountain pens.


The official US gold standard was from 1900 till 1933. This was
certainly the "golden age" of safeties, eyedroppers,
crescent-fillers, sleeve-fillers and the like.


I'm not sure what you mean by "official US gold standard", but the
Mint Act of 1792 fixed the value of the dollar to a certain amount of
gold, which in turn was valued at 15x the value of silver. Because
its value dropped relative to gold, silver became the de facto
standard for US currency. Nevertheless, as a bimetallic currency, the
value of the US dollar never lost all connection to gold.


--

  #29  
Old November 14th 06, 02:30 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
BL
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Posts: 190
Default Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

Barutan Seijin wrote:

...
Even if you consider the end of Parker 75
production to mark the end of the age of fps, most
of the fountain pen era still lies on this side of
the New Deal.


Parker ceased production of the 75 in 1994. That's about 35+ years
beyond the point at which ballpoints began dominating the market.
Defining what we mean by "the fountain pen era" is an interesting
question, though. IMO, the fountain pen era ended when sales of ball
points eclipsed sales of fountain pens... or maybe in 1958 when BIC
bought Waterman. -- B




  #30  
Old November 14th 06, 05:55 AM posted to alt.collecting.pens-pencils
mz
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Posts: 18
Default Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

Hi Virgil,

I've been following this thread and thinking about some of the
points raised. I'm not a cognoscente nor am I part of the
intelligentsia but would like to contribute some thoughts.

virgiliopoeta wrote:

It is incorrect to assert that modern pens are designed
to be stored nib up. In fact, most pens if stored nib up, will slowly
clog up even if tightly sealed. Certainly the great majority of pens if
left nib up, will not start at once, which is a sure sign of partial
clogging. Enough ink adheres to the feed to slowly clog it as
successive layers of dried ink accumulate. When you turn a pen nib up,
and leave it, not all the ink flows back into the bladder or reservoir.
A small part dries in the feed. This is the simplest explanation which
accounts for the observed facts, and is therefore most probably the
correct one.


To my mind, it does not follow that a poor starting pen after being
left nib up is a sure sign of partial clogging. It seems more likely
the cause is the ink flowing back into the fountain, i.e.,
reservoir, which you note as a minor factor.

The idea of accumulating dried ink clogging the feed does not make
sense to me given modern fountain pen inks. (Let me inject here that
I assume we are discussing pens used with some regularity.) Since
the aniline dyes (or vegetable dyes in the case of J. Herbin) and
other additives in modern inks are water soluble, dried ink on the
feed would dissolve into solution once ink was flowing through the
feed. The only case where this wouldn't happen is when the ink is
saturated with dye and additives, which would inhibit the dried ink
from dissolving. Therefore, storing a pen with its nib up will not
result in an accretion of dried ink except in the case of saturated
inks. While there are modern inks with dense solutions of dyes, I
don't know of any that are saturated. Therefore it does not follow
that dried ink is the cause of difficult starting in pens stored nib up.

Further, my experience is that pens with inner caps that seal
tightly against the section can be left for weeks with nib up and
write the moment nib touches paper. Those of my pens without inner
caps can be difficult to start in the morning if left over night
with the nib up.

Personal experience is anecdotal and may not be applicable in the
greater sense, but I think there are pertinent points here. The
inner cap seals the nib and feed from atmospheric pressure, thereby
preventing ink from flowing back into the fountain through formation
of a vacuum. This condition is missing in pens without inner caps,
allowing ink to flow into the fountain as the atmosphere flows into
the cap replacing the retreating ink.

snip


In a well-designed feed however, even storage nib down is quite
safe.


I agree with you here, but it is important to remember there can be
no possibility for exchange of air from the reservoir to the outside
or the nib will leak no matter how good the feed is, and this
includes the Parker 51 with its peerless feed and collector.

BTW, you seem to be in good fettle for someone who has been dead for
over two-thousand years. ;0)

Mark Z.
 




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