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  #11  
Old October 3rd 05, 02:27 AM
Noodler
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Use a bic? Simple example of why some people don't: some rubbing alcohol or
acetone will wash it and only that line out of the paper in about 8 seconds.

I see nothing wrong with trying to increase the utility, versatility, and
reliability of the fountain pen through the development of more and better
inks. I'm sorry to see that it offends you - it is only an attempt at
promoting the use of the fountain pen, including at least a few utilitarians
that previously were ignoring the fountain pen entirely!


*bad taste* (Tiananmen, Iraqi
Indigo...).



The first free elections in 5,000 years within the fertile crescent, whereby
if an ordinary citizen dared to show that color upon their fingers they
risked death for themselves and their families by terrorists simply because
they exercised their new right to vote. Bad taste? That is a heroic color
to the people who risked their very lives with it - worthy of at least some
recognition somewhere! I know the PC like to overlook the fact that those
people were risking their lives to vote, and took even greater amounts of
courage to show their fingers in public despite the threat of the death that
surrounded them - but I never will. Those people deserve our respect at the
very least - and if anything was gained by the great sacrifice there...it
was the freedom to vote.

Tiananmen in bad taste? It will never sell on the Chinese mainland because
it expresses a desire to be free of tyranny. It is the most auspicious of
Chinese colors and the label reflects the heroism of a lone individual who
for a moment in history single handedly defied the tyrants in Beijing before
the eyes of the entire globe. Bad taste? It is too bad we don't remember
Tiananmen Square in 1989 more often!

Is the love of freedom now un-PC? Is the love of freedom now a sin???!!!


Ads
  #12  
Old October 3rd 05, 07:09 AM
*david*
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Noodler wrote:

*bad taste* (Tiananmen, Iraqi
Indigo...).



The first free elections in 5,000 years within the fertile crescent, whereby
if an ordinary citizen dared to show that color upon their fingers they
risked death for themselves and their families by terrorists simply because
they exercised their new right to vote. Bad taste? That is a heroic color
to the people who risked their very lives with it - worthy of at least some
recognition somewhere! I know the PC like to overlook the fact that those
people were risking their lives to vote, and took even greater amounts of
courage to show their fingers in public despite the threat of the death that
surrounded them - but I never will. Those people deserve our respect at the
very least - and if anything was gained by the great sacrifice there...it
was the freedom to vote.

Tiananmen in bad taste? It will never sell on the Chinese mainland because
it expresses a desire to be free of tyranny. It is the most auspicious of
Chinese colors and the label reflects the heroism of a lone individual who
for a moment in history single handedly defied the tyrants in Beijing before
the eyes of the entire globe. Bad taste? It is too bad we don't remember
Tiananmen Square in 1989 more often!

Is the love of freedom now un-PC? Is the love of freedom now a sin???!!!


Nathan, it just isn't that simple. The fact that you think it *is* that
simple, is the problem in a nutshell.
But I like your ink, and I don't have a problem buying it because the
bottle is in a drawer in my house and not on display at work.

I'm just hoping the next colour isn't called Hiroshima Mushroom Cloud
Gray, because that one I wouldn't buy, even if I did like the ink, and
even if you claimed it represented "freedom" :-(

  #13  
Old October 3rd 05, 08:17 AM
Noodler
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It's not a claim. The Iraqi Indigo ink was modeled upon samples obtained
from that actual election...so it is EXACTLY what I meant it to mean.

What amazes me most about the modern era is that ANY exercise of free
expression OFFENDS somebody egregiously. At least the people who are
"offended" by the Tiananmen label have not (yet) threatened to kill me as
those who loathe the Ottoman Azure/Rose labels have. Another interesting
thing about the nuts who loathe Ottoman Azure/Rose - they are not even
Turkish citizens but reside in one of the emirates!!! Some of those
claiming to be the most tolerant people on earth are also the very same who
are the most easily and deeply offended by harmless perceptions...such as
the woman who was offended by "Beaver" ink - the only blue spectrum brown
ink on the market today, like a beaver's tail - not the fur. Did Carter's
ever have a problem with their "Beaver Brown" back in the 1930s?
Incredible.

Many of the people who use Iraqi Indigo never even bother with the name - I
see a lot of references to "Lap-Indigo" from those who mix it with Legal
Lapis to make a royal blue-black combo. They don't seem to get hung up on
the label and instead just use the ink. If you read the label, it is
nothing more than the very basis of our country's political heritage dating
back to its founding. Then again "All men are created equal" or the even
more controversial and shocking (my goodness, get the police and lock me
up!!) "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable
Rights" would open up an even bigger can of worms with the PC crowd.

As for the "Hiroshima" reference - I'm not nuts. It is comparing apples and
oranges - because Iraqi Indigo was made in direct reference to a very
historic use of ink...not a claim or innuendo - but was actually modeled on
the ink used in that first free election in Mesopotamia in 5,000 years.
Sometimes it is "that simple".

Though Antietam is a historical reference that is admittedly outright
controversial - it is a historical reference from the era the ink was
replicating in terms of certain iron based dip pen inks of the Civil War
period. That specific historic color was being replicated. A bottle of
"David's Star" ink made in the same year as the battle of Antietam was also
involved in that inspiration - it was the only successful rehydration from
that period. I had asked Anne Poe Lehr about Antietam several months before
her passing (those in the Long Island Pen Club know who she was) and she
strongly encouraged the use of that name - being a Civil War buff herself.
Too many people like the name to change it anyway - and I think of her each
time I see it now.

The only other name that can bring about a PC shock would be Verdun - a play
on the words for "green" and a very large battle that took place in WW I.
"A durable enough ink for the men at Verdun." was scripted on a prototype
label and then removed. Calling certain inks "bulletproof" was due to Greg
Clark's ink tests and articles on "bullet proof" inks. I'm sorry that the
names are too strong for some - but enough people like them to keep them!



"*david*" wrote in message
ups.com...

Noodler wrote:

*bad taste* (Tiananmen, Iraqi
Indigo...).



The first free elections in 5,000 years within the fertile crescent,
whereby
if an ordinary citizen dared to show that color upon their fingers they
risked death for themselves and their families by terrorists simply
because
they exercised their new right to vote. Bad taste? That is a heroic
color
to the people who risked their very lives with it - worthy of at least
some
recognition somewhere! I know the PC like to overlook the fact that
those
people were risking their lives to vote, and took even greater amounts of
courage to show their fingers in public despite the threat of the death
that
surrounded them - but I never will. Those people deserve our respect at
the
very least - and if anything was gained by the great sacrifice there...it
was the freedom to vote.

Tiananmen in bad taste? It will never sell on the Chinese mainland
because
it expresses a desire to be free of tyranny. It is the most auspicious
of
Chinese colors and the label reflects the heroism of a lone individual
who
for a moment in history single handedly defied the tyrants in Beijing
before
the eyes of the entire globe. Bad taste? It is too bad we don't
remember
Tiananmen Square in 1989 more often!

Is the love of freedom now un-PC? Is the love of freedom now a sin???!!!


Nathan, it just isn't that simple. The fact that you think it *is* that
simple, is the problem in a nutshell.
But I like your ink, and I don't have a problem buying it because the
bottle is in a drawer in my house and not on display at work.

I'm just hoping the next colour isn't called Hiroshima Mushroom Cloud
Gray, because that one I wouldn't buy, even if I did like the ink, and
even if you claimed it represented "freedom" :-(



  #14  
Old October 3rd 05, 05:07 PM
KCat
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warning: rather blunt with examples of crude language to make a point.


frankly, i'm offended by PR Avacado. Dang it! It's AvOcado! :P

i understand that it's a global market but being part-owner in a WWII
operational s/w company i also understand there are times when History, as
accurately portrayed as possible, takes precedence over being "PC". we do
work within the restrictions imposed by some European countries - IOW, we do
not include the swastika in any images (which often means chopping out
pieces of images from the war itself - something I am more offended by to be
honest as it is seems "revisionist" to me). Sometimes it all seems a bit
ludicrous.

I'm not offended by "Beaver" ink - but I do get a giggle out of it.
confession, i'm still a bit childish when it comes to words in our
vernacular that mean "naughty bits".

what would most offend me would be blatant crudity, dishonesty, rudeness,
etc. If someone made an ink called "The Ol' lady on the Rag" for example,
then he'd earn my ire. or if the ink was packaged in tiny bottles for large
amounts of money (can you say Herbin) that would bother me (I still buy the
ink though.)

I know it's been said already to an extent - but if we're going to carry
this so far as to argue with Nathan about his naming conventions than we
need to talk to Pelikan, Delta, Krone, and others. We haven't even begun to
talk about Krone's website!

if something offends you, don't buy it. I know that's the simplistic "just
turn the t.v. off" view of things but in this case I think it's very easy to
avoid looking at bottles that say "Ottoman Rose" especially now that you
know they exist. must we now take all our history books and cull the word
"Ottoman" from them? And what about all those poor lonely footstools that
would be dumped on the side of the road?

okay - well, obviously i'm in a goofy mood - punch drunk from too much time
packing and cleaning. I probably will end up with Hanta virus or
something... one never realizes just how many rodents were living in an
attic until one moves to a new home. shudder (we exterminated years ago
but didn't realize just how much fun they'd had in our boxes in the attic.
--

KCat

For Pen Talk, Images, Trading and Reviews: The Fountain Pen Network
http://www.fountainpennetwork.com

For Lupus Support and Info
http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/ASLFAQ/



  #15  
Old October 3rd 05, 07:01 PM
*david*
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Isn't the PR ink called Avacado after a woman named Ava?

The v-for victory sign on Nathan's bottle is a sign for American
victory over the Iraqis, and has little to do with Iraqi freedom. If a
"free" U.S. election was held with a foreign army in the streets, would
the result be recognized by Americans? I hope not.

  #16  
Old October 3rd 05, 07:43 PM
KCat
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"*david*" wrote in message
ups.com...
Isn't the PR ink called Avacado after a woman named Ava?


i asked that once before (though not of anyone who knew the answer) so I
have no clue. That would be my guess.

i was, of course, being facetious.


  #17  
Old October 3rd 05, 07:52 PM
Juan
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*david* wrote:
Isn't the PR ink called Avacado after a woman named Ava?

The v-for victory sign on Nathan's bottle is a sign for American
victory over the Iraqis, and has little to do with Iraqi freedom. If a
"free" U.S. election was held with a foreign army in the streets, would
the result be recognized by Americans? I hope not.


Advertizing - considered by many the 9th art (8th is comic books) -
works in strange ways. In Spain we have some Undertaker's with names
which could be translated as "Loneliness", "Sunset"... Makes me wonder
what the heck were those people thinking when choosing a name. You want
to attract customers, right? Blows my mind.

Then, the media has bored us to death telling us there's democracy in
Iraq. IMNSHO, It takes more than people puting pieces of paper in a box
for democracy to exist. But as people believe what the media says, you
can also use a sign of illiteracy (a finger dipped in ink for signing)
to advertize fountain pen ink. As I said, advertizing is a weird thing.

PS: I like the way some Noodlers inks look like. Really.

Juan

  #18  
Old October 3rd 05, 09:06 PM
Juan
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Maybe. Although I've been told I have a thick skin. Many times. Do you
think that an overly sensitive would dare to say something that could
contradict what the accp mainstream adore?

One thing's for su I don't need to talk about what everone does, or
praise what everyone does, or buy the pen everyone does or... simply
because I don't give a ballpen for popularity, people's acceptance or
anything. Maybe *you* need it.

BTW, who has talked about problems? If you have a look at other
people's posts, it seems I'm not the only one with a "problem". In fact
this thread looks like "The Emperor Wears no Clothes" tale. Ever heard
about it?

Juan

  #19  
Old October 3rd 05, 09:45 PM
Sonam Dasara
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On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:27:10 GMT, Noodler typed:

*bad taste* (Tiananmen, Iraqi
Indigo...).


Personally I could care less about the implications of what fanciful
names you name your inks.

But what I would really like to see from *all* ink makers is a
realistic description of the ink color - maybe even with a Pantone
number reference in place of the meaningless names many give their
inks.

After all, I do hope that you realize that people buy the inks for
their *color*, not for (or perhaps in spite of) the cute name....

--
Cordially,

Sonam Dasara
10/3/2005 4:41:42 PM
  #20  
Old October 3rd 05, 10:38 PM
*david*
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I suspect ink colours are not stable enough from batch to batch to give
them a Pantone number - but I feel somewhat the same way.
Then again, how do you write a description that everybody will
interpret the same way? Pretty hard to do.

 




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