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Washed Books ?



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 16th 07, 07:03 PM posted to rec.collecting.books
John R. Yamamoto-Wilson
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Posts: 80
Default Washed Books ?

wrote:

The wormed copy does have a library stamp located exactly
at the cut-out section of the washed copy.


If you suspect that both copies may have originated from that same
library (and that library still exists), it might be worth checking that
they were properly deaccessioned from that library.

About freshness, the washed copy overall looks much nicer than the
wormed copy.


Then I would go for that.

John
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  #12  
Old June 16th 07, 07:54 PM posted to rec.collecting.books
Walter Traprock
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Posts: 14
Default Washed Books ?

"John R. Yamamoto-Wilson" wrote:

wrote:

What is the difference between removing library stamp and
proof of ownership ?


Alice is saying that maybe the the book had been stolen from the library
and the library stamp was removed to hide that fact.

If part of the title page has been cut out, I don't see how you can know
what may once have been on that section (unless it was printed text).
Are you just guessing that it may have been a library stamp? If so, it's
a reasonable guess, but surely it is just as likely to have been a
signature by a previous owner?

But perhaps you have more to go on and can identify the actual library
(perhaps because there are other stamps elsewhere in the book)? If so,
then it might be worth contacting the library to see whether the book
has indeed been properly deaccessioned.


Gee, should we be doing that with all our books? What about books
bought at a library sale? The library itself may not have concretely
established ownership, so this gets difficult.
  #13  
Old June 16th 07, 10:08 PM posted to rec.collecting.books
my-wings
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Posts: 75
Default Washed Books ?


"Walter Traprock" wrote in message
...
"John R. Yamamoto-Wilson" wrote:

wrote:

What is the difference between removing library stamp and
proof of ownership ?


Alice is saying that maybe the the book had been stolen from the library
and the library stamp was removed to hide that fact.

If part of the title page has been cut out, I don't see how you can know
what may once have been on that section (unless it was printed text).
Are you just guessing that it may have been a library stamp? If so, it's
a reasonable guess, but surely it is just as likely to have been a
signature by a previous owner?

But perhaps you have more to go on and can identify the actual library
(perhaps because there are other stamps elsewhere in the book)? If so,
then it might be worth contacting the library to see whether the book
has indeed been properly deaccessioned.


Gee, should we be doing that with all our books? What about books
bought at a library sale? The library itself may not have concretely
established ownership, so this gets difficult.


Many, if not most, books bought at library sales were donated to the library
and never entered into the collection at all. When books that have been part
of a collection are deaccessioned, they are generally stamped "Withdrawn" in
some prominent place, like the title page, or the top or bottom page edges.
Admittedly, someone could easily fake such a stamp, but I wouldn't suggest
that every collector running across a book stamped "Withdrawn" follow up.

On the other hand, the book in question appears to be of some value, and the
original poster did say that a piece of the title page was cut out to remove
a library stamp (although he may have been guessing as to what was removed).
Since missing material is generally considered worse than defaced material,
it's unlikely that any knowledgeable person would actually remove a piece of
a page unless they wanted to conceal former ownership. In fact, former
ownership for a book of this age would generally be considered a valuable
piece of provenance.

So, one has to ask oneself...why the removal? The first thing that springs
to my mind is that the book was stolen from a library collection, and the
information was removed so that the true owner could not be identified.
There might be other reasons, but that's the first thing I thought of. If
that were the case, it might even be possible to identify the library, since
there are probably a limited number that list the book in their holdings. I
don't collect them myself, but it seems to me that 400 year old books can't
be that thick on the ground. One could conceivable write to libraries based
on their WorldCat entries.

But that's not advice for every book that comes one's way. It's only that
this one has been defaced in an odd way that sends up a red flag for me, at
least.

Alice




  #14  
Old June 17th 07, 09:30 AM posted to rec.collecting.books
biblios
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Posts: 2
Default Washed Books ?


"my-wings" wrote in message
...

" wrote in message
ups.com...

By the way, the cut-out in the title page is to remove the library
stamp.

Calvin


That sounds odd. Are you sure the book was properly deaccessioned? Maybe
that cutout was to remove proof of ownership.

Alice



Perhaps if Calvin simply told everyone how exactly he just came
to "find" these two 400 year old books, then that might help make
things a bit clearer.

biblios

--






  #15  
Old June 17th 07, 01:23 PM posted to rec.collecting.books
foad
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Posts: 3
Default Washed Books ?


"my-wings" wrote in message
...


Since missing material is generally considered worse than defaced
material, it's unlikely that any knowledgeable person would actually
remove a piece of a page unless they wanted to conceal former ownership.
In fact, former ownership for a book of this age would generally be
considered a valuable piece of provenance.


The several times I've run across a somewhat collectible book with part or
all of the title page missing my assumption was that some numbskull had
removed the author's "autograph." I doubt that's the case here, I'm just
saying.


  #16  
Old June 17th 07, 05:49 PM posted to rec.collecting.books
[email protected]
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Posts: 7
Default Washed Books ?


The book was rebound in 1800s. While there are 2 initials on the book
spine, there are no stamp or other marks in the book.

Since the cutout raised a red flag, as Alice mentioned, I decided not
to proceed further.

Thanks all for your comments.

Calvin

On Jun 17, 5:23 am, "foad" wrote:

"my-wings" wrote in message

...

Since missing material is generally considered worse than defaced
material, it's unlikely that any knowledgeable person would actually
remove a piece of a page unless they wanted to conceal former ownership.
In fact, former ownership for a book of this age would generally be
considered a valuable piece of provenance.


The several times I've run across a somewhat collectible book with part or
all of the title page missing my assumption was that some numbskull had
removed the author's "autograph." I doubt that's the case here, I'm just
saying.



  #17  
Old June 17th 07, 06:33 PM posted to rec.collecting.books
John R. Yamamoto-Wilson
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Posts: 80
Default Washed Books ?

wrote:

The book was rebound in 1800s. While there are 2 initials on the book
spine, there are no stamp or other marks in the book.

Since the cutout raised a red flag, as Alice mentioned, I decided not
to proceed further.


I think that may be unduly cautious. If the cutting-out is old, as you
say, it may well have been done at the time of rebinding simply because
the owner resented having whatever was written/stamped there on his
book. You have to bear in mind that, in the 19th century, while it would
have been recognised as a collectible book, it probably had no very
great value attached to it, so the incentive to steal it would have been
much smaller, and the qualms about defacing it much fewer.

There is no record of the book having been stolen on the ABAA database
(http://www.abaa.org/books/abaa/datab...n_search.html). That
doesn't prove anything, of course, but it probably means it hasn't been
stolen any time in the recent past.

One way you might get to the bottom of this is by taking the matter to
the Exlibris discussion list
(http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byfor...sts/exlibris/; scroll
down to "Subscribing" and follow the instructions given there).

There are many trained librarians on that list, who will be able to give
you authoritative guidance on this. Someone may even be able to confirm
whether this book has ever been reported stolen.

John
  #18  
Old June 19th 07, 03:43 PM posted to rec.collecting.books
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Washed Books ?

On Jun 17, 10:33 am, "John R. Yamamoto-Wilson"
wrote:
wrote:
The book was rebound in 1800s. While there are 2 initials on the book
spine, there are no stamp or other marks in the book.


Since the cutout raised a red flag, as Alice mentioned, I decided not
to proceed further.


I think that may be unduly cautious. If the cutting-out is old, as you
say, it may well have been done at the time of rebinding simply because
the owner resented having whatever was written/stamped there on his
book. You have to bear in mind that, in the 19th century, while it would
have been recognised as a collectible book, it probably had no very
great value attached to it, so the incentive to steal it would have been
much smaller, and the qualms about defacing it much fewer.

There is no record of the book having been stolen on the ABAA database
(http://www.abaa.org/books/abaa/datab...n_search.html). That
doesn't prove anything, of course, but it probably means it hasn't been
stolen any time in the recent past.

One way you might get to the bottom of this is by taking the matter to
the Exlibris discussion list
(http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byfor...libris/;scroll
down to "Subscribing" and follow the instructions given there).

There are many trained librarians on that list, who will be able to give
you authoritative guidance on this. Someone may even be able to confirm
whether this book has ever been reported stolen.

John


Thanks for the info, John.

Calvin

 




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