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Loudness and Volume



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 17th 11, 03:33 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
NJ Mike
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Posts: 90
Default Loudness and Volume

Just read an article in Just Jukin about adding loudness control to
volume control circuit.

I'm not quite sure exactly what the difference is here. Is this meant
to keep the same sound level on all records played?

I do notice on my RO1454 some records are much louder than others, so
maybe this is what it is for. If so, can this type of circuit be
added to my box?

Thanks,
Mike
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  #2  
Old February 17th 11, 06:58 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
Arthur Dent[_2_]
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Posts: 6
Default Loudness and Volume

I don't have an answer for you but, what is "Just Jukin"?

Glen


"NJ Mike" wrote in message
...
Just read an article in Just Jukin about adding loudness control to
volume control circuit.

I'm not quite sure exactly what the difference is here. Is this meant
to keep the same sound level on all records played?

I do notice on my RO1454 some records are much louder than others, so
maybe this is what it is for. If so, can this type of circuit be
added to my box?

Thanks,
Mike



  #3  
Old February 17th 11, 10:44 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
NJ Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default Loudness and Volume

opps...Always Jukin..my mistake
Mike
  #4  
Old February 17th 11, 11:51 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
Rob in NYC[_2_]
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Posts: 103
Default Loudness and Volume

Mike, what you are looking for is an "AVC" -or automatic volume
control. I'am not sure when Rock-ola started incorporating them,
but I've owned a 1458 and 1465 both of those models had AVC.

It's not really practical to try to build it into your existing amp
but since the pickup is the same and the other connections -might-
also be, you could look into getting a slightly later amp that has
avc. Rock-Ola didn't often make major changes internally so with a
little know-how almost any mono (R-O)amp could be accommodated.

BTW: A "loudness" control if just a method where lower setting of the
volume control boosts the bass (and sometime the highest treble
slightly) to compensate for human ear's deficiencies at low volume
levels. It does not equalize the levels of the records. You R-O
already has such a control.

Rob+











On Feb 17, 9:33*am, NJ Mike wrote:
Just read an article in Just Jukin about adding loudness control to
volume control circuit.

I'm not quite sure exactly what the difference is here. *Is this meant
to keep the same sound level on all records played?

I do notice on my RO1454 some records are much louder than others, so
maybe this is what it is for. *If so, can this type of circuit be
added to my box?

Thanks,
Mike


  #5  
Old February 18th 11, 02:03 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
NJ Mike
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Posts: 90
Default Loudness and Volume

Thanks for the info rob. I'll have to check into what amp might be
swapable with the one I have.

Also, how effective is the AVC on the Rockolas? I haven't had a lot
of exposure to the different models when playing.

Mike
  #6  
Old February 19th 11, 11:24 AM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
Rob in NYC[_2_]
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Posts: 103
Default Loudness and Volume

Mike, there are a couple of points regarding changing amps here; the
most important is that your machine uses a field coil speaker (I
believe) this is an electric coil instead of magnet at the rear of the
speaker.

If you change to a later amp, you'll also have to change the speaker
as again I believe, the 1454 was the last year to use a field coil.

As for AVC efficacy, ALL these circuits are subtractive in nature.
That is, they reduce the level (gain) as the level from the pickup
increases. So, a loud record with get attenuated and a low one will
get little/no attenuation.

The original ceramic pickup was fairly high output, it also was not
designed for dealing with stereo records. If you change over to a more
modern pickup, it is possible that it's output will be somewhat lower
and thus the AVC's ability to equalize all records will be less
effective.

In my own experience with the 1458 and 1465 I replaced the original
pickup (same as yours) with a Pickering magnetic and used an outboard
pre-amp. I tested the amount of gain reduction on the AVC and found
that a loud record was compressed by about 16 decibels and thus a low
record was brought up to approx the same level.

The sort of modification that you envision requires a degree of
electronics knowledge, but it is not that difficult. In the case of a
1454 it might be better to consider selling the machine and getting a
slightly later one. A simple compromise might be to use a remote
volume control (RVC) that allows you to adjust the level without have
to get to the back of the machine. These are available used and fairly
easy to set up, in fact you could probably just lengthen the wire on
your existing volume control and mount it in a box.

Rob.













On Feb 18, 8:03*am, NJ Mike wrote:
Thanks for the info rob. I'll have to check into what amp might be
swapable with the one I have.

Also, how effective is the AVC on the Rockolas? *I haven't had a lot
of exposure to the different models when playing.

Mike


  #7  
Old February 19th 11, 06:30 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
jukeboxnut[_2_]
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Posts: 8
Default Loudness and Volume

Thanks for reminding me to play my 1454! I just played 6 tunes on it,
love that machine! It doesn't *sound* like I have a VLC on my 1454
either. Funny, because it does sound like my Tempo II has one, for
sure. It's actually kind of distracting, the record starts off loud,
then the VLC kicks in and softens the volume. Guess it was something
Rockola added later. The 1434 sounds like it's not a feature on that
machine either.
Keep Jukin'!
Brad, Vacaville, CA
http://www.jukeboxnut.com

On Feb 17, 6:33*am, NJ Mike wrote:
Just read an article in Just Jukin about adding loudness control to
volume control circuit.

I'm not quite sure exactly what the difference is here. *Is this meant
to keep the same sound level on all records played?

I do notice on my RO1454 some records are much louder than others, so
maybe this is what it is for. *If so, can this type of circuit be
added to my box?

Thanks,
Mike


  #8  
Old February 21st 11, 09:18 AM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
Rob in NYC[_2_]
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Posts: 103
Default Loudness and Volume

On Feb 19, 12:30*pm, jukeboxnut wrote:
Thanks for reminding me to play my 1454! I just played 6 tunes on it,
love that machine! It doesn't *sound* like I have a VLC on my 1454
either. Funny, because it does sound like my Tempo II has one, for
sure. It's actually kind of distracting, the record starts off loud,
then the VLC kicks in and softens the volume. Guess it was something
Rockola added later. The 1434 sounds like it's not a feature on that
machine either.
Keep Jukin'!
Brad, Vacaville, CAhttp://www.jukeboxnut.com

Mike, I looked at a schematic for your Tempo's amp and it looks like R-
O went to the use of thermistors for AVC. The problem with this
circuit is that is makes no provision for "squelch" which sets the
volume (gain) very low at the start of a record and releases the
circuit so that record level then sets the gain.

The thermistor circuit has no such provision. Rock ola used a very
effective tube based AVC for, it seems, only two models (1458-1465)
those had an AVC squelch which worked just as the AVC's in Seeburg-
Wurlitzer-AMI. I can only guess that R-O was seeking to make the maps
simpler/cheaper by using thermistors.

I've owned a 1496, a Grand Prix and 432. The 1496 and 432 were tube
and used the thermistors, the trick was to set the input gain pots so
that a really "loud" record would not overshoot (blast) too much at
the beginning. The problem is that it reduces the circuit's ability to
even out the differences between loud and low because the system then
may not always have enough gain to bring up a low record, but it is a
good compromise.

I experimented back in 1987 with making a squelch circuit for the
thermistor design. It added a set of contacts to the mute relay that
put a small amount of AC from the tube heater circuit into the
thermistors to bias them down, just as a loud record would do. When
the machines un-muted the AC was eliminated and volume slowly came up.

I don't know why R-O didn't go this route, but I guess the goal of
simpler/cheaper trumped.

Rob





On Feb 17, 6:33*am, NJ Mike wrote:

Just read an article in Just Jukin about adding loudness control to
volume control circuit.


I'm not quite sure exactly what the difference is here. *Is this meant
to keep the same sound level on all records played?


I do notice on my RO1454 some records are much louder than others, so
maybe this is what it is for. *If so, can this type of circuit be
added to my box?


Thanks,
Mike


  #9  
Old February 21st 11, 07:40 PM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
NJ Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default Loudness and Volume

Rob,
Thanks for your detailed answers and explanations. I'm primarily and
EM pinball guy, so much of the detail is a bit beyond my knowledge
level, but I'm trying.

The box I have is a 1454, and I'm wondering if it might be a whole
lot simpler to get a remote volume control. Do you know if RO made
one for this era, and if not, would it be as simple a wiring a
additional volume pot in series with the one already connected?

Thanks again,

Mike in NJ
  #10  
Old February 22nd 11, 06:30 AM posted to alt.collecting.juke-boxes
Rob in NYC[_2_]
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Posts: 103
Default Loudness and Volume

Mike, I agree that an RVC is the best (and most original) way to go
here.

Go he http://www.verntisdale.com/Rockolaschem.htm

Then lookup your model: http://www.verntisdale.com/schem/1454.jpg

_you'll see that the model of RVC for your amp is #1927-A Which is a
mono unit and looks similar to this:

http://www.collectibles-articles.com...560538233.html
I don't know if that particular one would work, but the plug looks
correct.

Good news is that ANY 25K/Ohm pot with a dual taps can be used
here..Seeburg pots are fine. I recall that the guy who hosts the
schematics was selling reproductions pots for something like $25. The
is the pot only w/out a box, cord or plug.

You could also try Orange trading for an original and go to Always
Jukin magazine

http://alwaysjukin.storesecured.com/...ssues/list.htm D-L
the free copy and peruse the AD's for other sources.

Get back to me w/any Q's

Rob













On Feb 21, 1:40*pm, NJ Mike wrote:
Rob,
Thanks for your detailed answers and explanations. *I'm primarily and
EM pinball guy, so much of the detail is a bit beyond my knowledge
level, but I'm trying.

The *box I have is a 1454, and I'm wondering if it might be a whole
lot simpler to get a remote volume control. *Do you know if RO made
one for this era, and if not, would it be as simple a wiring a
additional volume pot in series with the one already connected?

Thanks again,

Mike in NJ


 




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