OT. Personal responsibility vs. collective one. On this day in History....12th Dec

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:28:03 -0800, Eric Bustad
wrote:

Tracy Barber wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:30:30 GMT, Bob Ingraham wrote:
12/16/2003 12:21 PM


"Tracy Barber" wrote in message
m...

An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the
circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and
Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor
did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of
Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime?

Apparently, you have forgotten about the hysteria that was created by
the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda surrounding it.

The Hawaiian Japanese Americans, who logically
were the most 'dangerous', were left alone. The
more bigoted West coast (where I grew up) had a
bigoted commander who pushed to treat even kids
worse than criminals.


The Germans nor
the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so to speak.

Actually, German subs operated right off the
Atlantic coast sinking ships and landing spies.
Those caught were interned here in Delaware.

TJR

Good points, Terry. There can really be no serious argument that "war
hysteria" was the cause of the Japanese internments in both Canada and the
U.S. Let's call it what it was: bigotry.

And you call Japanese aggression what?

Tracy Barber

War crimes.

Do you always blame innocent persons, such as the Japanese Americans,
for the misdeeds of the political leaders in their former homeland?

If they take no part in the action, of course not.

So, the internment is a worse crime than the war crimes committed?

Yes, I do hold them responsible if they spy for the invading forces.
Please do not attempt to deny that this was in the works in Hawaii as
well as the mainland. Not only for Japanese, but for Germany.

But, it sure as hell seems that all Americans are being bashed for
what the elected officials are doing all the time. The U.S. is the
poop bag du jour, according to the world.

Pot - Kettle - Black.

In Japan, they knew the deal when they got into it. Same with Germany,
although even though those innocent citizens lived only a mile or so
away form the death camps. Yeah, innocent my arse.

In the end game, is is too damn sad that people have to die because
idiots make decisions like mentioned.

Until there's a global enforcement, everyone included, under a neutral
administrative power, this will keep on happening.

Tracy Barber

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:30:30 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote:

Good points, Terry. There can really be no serious argument that "war
hysteria" was the cause of the Japanese internments in both Canada and the
U.S. Let's call it what it was: bigotry.


How about these for "hysteria"...


http://www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo/9066/9066.htm

Following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, the
United States was gripped by war hysteria. This was especially strong
along the Pacific coast of the U.S., where residents feared more
Japanese attacks on their cities, homes, and businesses. Leaders in
California, Oregon, and Washington, demanded that the residents of
Japanese ancestry be removed from their homes along the coast and
relocated in isolated inland areas.


http://www.crf-usa.org/terror/korematsu.htm

In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to
investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded
that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison
camps occurred because of “race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure
of political leadership.” In 1988, Congress apologized and granted
personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner.


http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreti...nternment.html

On February 19, 1942, President Franklin Roosevelt signed Executive
Order 9066, approving the en masse relocation of Japanese and
Japanese-American citizens from the West Coast into the interior of
the country. The order was signed amid the hysteria following the
Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. The reason given at the time for the
evacuation was concern about espionage, or so-called "fifth--column,"
activities of Japanese and Japanese-Americans on the Coast. But
according to the government's own intelligence service, this concern
over espionage was misplaced. That is, concern for national security
was not the true reason for interning Japanese and Japanese-Americans
during World War II. Instead, this internment was motivated by nothing
other than interest-group politics.


....More, if needed.


'Nuff Said.

Tracy Barber

Tracy Barber wrote:
snipped

In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to
investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded
that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison
camps occurred because of “race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure
of political leadership.” In 1988, Congress apologized and granted
personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner.

That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most
would have sufficed. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair
liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary
compensation. This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking
Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve
everything. They think they are obligated to right every wrong that has
ever occurred, and do it with money. That in itself should show how
ignorant and out of touch with reality they are. What a large vessel of
bovine fecal material. Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion!
/soapbox

12/16/2003 10:08 PM

Tracy Barber wrote:
snipped

In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to
investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded
that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison
camps occurred because of ³race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure
of political leadership.² In 1988, Congress apologized and granted
personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner.

That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most
would have sufficed. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair
liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary
compensation. This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking
Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve
everything. They think they are obligated to right every wrong that has
ever occurred, and do it with money. That in itself should show how
ignorant and out of touch with reality they are. What a large vessel of
bovine fecal material. Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion!
/soapbox

How woud you feel if you were the child of a farmer or fisherman whose
family had had everything taken from you, and you had been separated from
your father for the duration of the war, and forced to live in what amounted
to a prison camp. Would you not feel that your family was entitled to some
compensation? Are you telling us that you would want or expect nothing more
than an apology. If we cannot find compassion in our hearts for people who
are truly wronged, than we have a problem. Not that we don't have problems
enough!

Bob Ingraham

"Grandpa" jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message
...
Tracy Barber wrote:
snipped

In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to
investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded
that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison
camps occurred because of “race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure
of political leadership.” In 1988, Congress apologized and granted
personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner.

That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most
would have sufficed.

An apology offered without some sort of compensation, especially when the
compensation is not hurtful to the one doing it, is appropriate. Noble,
maybe. Decent, yes. The right thing to do, certainly. But stupid and
asinine, never. Words without actions are just words. I would have thought a
person calling himself "Grandpa" would be old and wise enough to understand
that.

In no way were/are the descendents of this affair
liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary
compensation.

Of course they are. Especially in this situation. You, the people, profited
from the theft of their property. You, the people, through your elected
officials, wrongfully interred them. therefore, you, the people, pay the
compensation. And even if it were a bit of a grey area, why would you not
want to see someone whose life was ruined receive a token amount that would
serve to help them settle some matters as they approached their twilight
years?

This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking
Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve
everything.

Provide proof that is the case. But know that even if it was, it still
doesn't make it wrong (simple logic really).

Psst. Grandpa, watch where you step. You splattered a lot of the bfm from
that soapbox. Don't step in any. :-)

Bob Ingraham wrote:

12/16/2003 10:08 PM


Tracy Barber wrote:
snipped

In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to
investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded
that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison
camps occurred because of ³race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure
of political leadership.² In 1988, Congress apologized and granted
personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner.

That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most
would have sufficed. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair
liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary
compensation. This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking
Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve
everything. They think they are obligated to right every wrong that has
ever occurred, and do it with money. That in itself should show how
ignorant and out of touch with reality they are. What a large vessel of
bovine fecal material. Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion!
/soapbox


How woud you feel if you were the child of a farmer or fisherman whose
family had had everything taken from you, and you had been separated from
your father for the duration of the war, and forced to live in what amounted
to a prison camp. Would you not feel that your family was entitled to some
compensation? Are you telling us that you would want or expect nothing more
than an apology. If we cannot find compassion in our hearts for people who
are truly wronged, than we have a problem. Not that we don't have problems
enough!

Like Strom Thurmunds new found daughter, yes, an apology would do. No
money required. Sure, I'd be a bit angry, but giving me money is NOT
the way to apologize. In fact, it cheapens the entire process, like
here, take this and shut up. Nope, doesn't cut it IMO. If I were
really that mad about the entire thing, I'd leave the US, the place that
did me wrong. One also has to look at the hysteria involved at the time
and remember that todays rules do not necessarily apply to yesterdays
events. Compassion is different than compensation, one has meaning, the
other does not except as punishment or a payoff. And if you could be
bought off with money then you were not really angry in the first place,
you were greedy. A pretty shallow way to live IMO.

Peter D wrote:


That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most
would have sufficed.


An apology offered without some sort of compensation, especially when the
compensation is not hurtful to the one doing it, is appropriate. Noble,
maybe. Decent, yes. The right thing to do, certainly. But stupid and
asinine, never. Words without actions are just words. I would have thought a
person calling himself "Grandpa" would be old and wise enough to understand
that.

I am old enough and wise enough to understand when someone is being
arrogant (not you, the issue at hand) and wanting to buy me off to shut
up. If the wrong is that great then you fight for whats right on
PRINCIPLE, not take the money and run. If it was THAT wrong, what did
you do or the alledged perpetrator do to keep this from happening again?
Nothing, they [ayed you off with hush money and you pocketed some
money and left the door open for it to happen again in the future.
Asinine, yes, because no good came from it in the end except to
stimulate the economy by lining someones pockets and that being a burden
on the taxpayers. I'm not talking about the amounts of money but rather
the process and principles involved.

In no way were/are the descendents of this affair
liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary
compensation.

Of course they are. Especially in this situation. You, the people, profited
from the theft of their property. You, the people, through your elected
officials, wrongfully interred them. therefore, you, the people, pay the
compensation. And even if it were a bit of a grey area, why would you not
want to see someone whose life was ruined receive a token amount that would
serve to help them settle some matters as they approached their twilight
years?

I totally disagree sir. I am NOT responsible for what my father or
grandfather did. Take the American Indian for instance. We put him on
a piece of crappy land in most cases and gave them a monthly stipend for
life. We gave them homes, vehicles and other tangible things, then left
them to fend for themselves. We gave them everything of monetary value
saying "Oh, those poor Indians, they need to be compensated so lets give
them money." Caca, now many are drunks, only live on the reservations
because they can do so for free and don't have to work, but did we help
them? Nope, we cheapened it by giving monetary value, not things of
real value, like education, equality and most importantly - DIGNITY. We
took their pride and gave them money instead. Morals and money do not
go together and throwing more money at an issue rarely resolves the
issue, it just strings it along further and further until its eventually
forgotten about.

Psst. Grandpa, watch where you step. You splattered a lot of the bfm
from
that soapbox. Don't step in any. :-)

I'm simply stating my opinion in rebuttal to someone elses opinion,
nothing more, nothing less. I sincerely hope I didn't **** anyone off
but if so, oh well. We can disagree and still be friendly can't we? I
don't hate or dislike others because we don't see eye to eye and expect
others to be the same.

Happy Holidays.

Please ignore me, I'm getting and staying out of these arguments. This
group is starting to get too political for me.
Back to collecting my friends!

Dave

"Grandpa" jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message
...
Peter D wrote:
That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most
would have sufficed.

An apology offered without some sort of compensation, especially when
the
compensation is not hurtful to the one doing it, is appropriate. Noble,
maybe. Decent, yes. The right thing to do, certainly. But stupid and
asinine, never. Words without actions are just words. I would have
thought a
person calling himself "Grandpa" would be old and wise enough to
understand
that.

I am old enough and wise enough to understand when someone is being
arrogant (not you, the issue at hand) and wanting to buy me off to shut
up.

Understood. But that isn't the issue with the compensation given. I think
all parties understood it was insufficient to cover the losses of most of
the people affected (it didn't even cover the losses of those who died). It
was a token, a gesture, a way to bring closure to a sad and sorry state of
what alleged to be the most free nation on Earth.

It has long been a principal of law/justice that while monetary compensaiton
does not properly address wrongs, it is a reasonable means of compensating
the wrong.

I suspect that your harsh judgement of those who received compensaiton and
those who gave it is flawed. Certainly you seem insensitive and boorish in
regard to the victims. I could be wrong, but that is what I get from your
writings on the matter. I apologize if I have misunderstood you, but I call
it the way I see it. :-)

In no way were/are the descendents of this affair
liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary
compensation.

Of course they are. Especially in this situation. You, the people,
profited
from the theft of their property. You, the people, through your elected
officials, wrongfully interred them. therefore, you, the people, pay the
compensation. And even if it were a bit of a grey area, why would you
not
want to see someone whose life was ruined receive a token amount that
would
serve to help them settle some matters as they approached their twilight
years?

I totally disagree sir. I am NOT responsible for what my father or
grandfather did.

That is not what I said. This isn't about _you_. This is about _all of you_.
It is a _collective guilt. And thus the compensaiton is collective. And the
doing away of the harm is collective.

I deleted your coments re the Indigenous People of what is now your land. I
found them to be sweeping generalisaitons and a truly singular perspective
that has nothing to do with the actual matter at hand.

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:08:40 -0700, Grandpa jsdebooATcomcast.net
wrote:

Tracy Barber wrote:
snipped

In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to
investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded
that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison
camps occurred because of “race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure
of political leadership.” In 1988, Congress apologized and granted
personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner.

That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most
would have sufficed. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair
liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary
compensation. This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking
Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve
everything. They think they are obligated to right every wrong that has
ever occurred, and do it with money. That in itself should show how
ignorant and out of touch with reality they are. What a large vessel of
bovine fecal material. Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion!
/soapbox

Grandpa - you missed the point I was making. You brought up another
point, which is valid for you.

I wasn't talking about Carter - I was talking about hysteria. I think
I mad my point because you went hysterical!

Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion! :^P

Tracy Barber