If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
OT. Personal responsibility vs. collective one. On this day in History....12th Dec
Rodney,
Sorry, I don't exactly understand where is your problem. Have you directly participated in these atrocities or have you somehow, by your business or political activity or something like this contributed to it? Why should you or people of your generation feel responsible for things that happened a long time before you and they were born? Just the illustrate my thoughts read this fictive news: "The President of the Mongolian Republic has offered his apology to the Chinese and to Russian people for the atrocities committed by his ancestors in the distant past." What does it bring, what does it change? Should by chance Mongolians start paying compensations to hundreds of millions people? My points a - We are responsible only for what we are personally doing. Neither our relatives, not our compatriots can be considered guilty for our faults, and vice-versa, and this as well in the present as for the past. - The idea of the guilt of parents for what have done their adult children, and vice-versa, was and is the guiding principle of the most retrograde and repressive societies. Victor Manta --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org Art on Stamps: http://values.ch Romania Shown by Its Stamps: http://marci-postale.com Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/ Spanish Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/ Remove "um" from the e-mail address to reply --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Rodney" wrote in message ... I thought I detected some pride there KUK and I know where you are coming from. I didn't mean to offend, and I take your point. It was just yesterday, I viewed a documentary on history of our treatment of the Aborigines here, the genocide our early settler's practiced in Western Victoria. Our current Prime Minister hasn't the bottle to offer a simple apology. Merry Christmas. (Remove gum to reply) |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Hi Victor,
My problem is that we have had, from what I can see a selective history ethic in our schools, which is however, changing for the better. I personally do feel some responsibility, not for what has happened in the past, but for some in my generation that do not have the generosity of spirit to offer a simple apology, that goes toward reconciliation of our collective whole. One can argue the folly or otherwise, of such feeling or desire, but the fact remains, it is what I feel in my heart, not my head. What cost an apology? I feel empathy for these poor people that have been so abused in our past, I think it brotherly to show we share and understand their pain. Rgds |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Victor,
Should you need to read further into our history, I offer the following link. http://www.lib.latrobe.edu.au/AHR/ar...1998/bird.html This is not hundreds of years ago, but as late as the thirties and even into the 1950's, a mere heartbeat away. Many of the short entries from confidential submissions contain phrases of a poignant wistfulness that is so very sad: 'I've often thought, as old as I am, that it would have been lovely to have known a father and a mother, to know parents even for a little while, just to have had the opportunity of having a mother tuck you into bed and give you a good-night kiss -- but it was never to be.' The writer of that sentence in Confidential submission number 65, was fostered at two months of age, in 1936 in Tasmania. And a woman who was sent to the Cootamundra Girls' Home in the 1950s gives us in Confidential submission number 332 a vivid picture from her memory: 'I remember all we children being herded up, like a mob of cattle, and feeling the humiliation of being graded by the colour of our skins for the government records'. -- (Remove gum to reply) "Rodney" wrote in message ... | Hi Victor, | My problem is that we have had, from what I can see | a selective history ethic in our schools, which is however, | changing for the better. | | I personally do feel some responsibility, not for what has | happened in the past, but for some in my generation that | do not have the generosity of spirit to offer a simple | apology, that goes toward reconciliation of our collective | whole. | | One can argue the folly or otherwise, of such feeling or desire, | but the fact remains, it is what I feel in my heart, not my head. | What cost an apology? I feel empathy for these poor people | that have been so abused in our past, I think it brotherly to show | we share and understand their pain. | | Rgds | | | | |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Our current Prime Minister hasn't the bottle
to offer a simple apology. (Rodney) Hi Rodney, Of course, it is your right to "feel in my heart, not my head" or anyway else. :-) You are also free to present your excuses to anyone you wish for anything you wish (as long as you do it in your name). It isn't the same for a Prime Minister to present excuses, as long as neither s/he nor people that s/he represents directly participated in these crimes. It is necessary and sufficient that the Constitution of a country qualifies these kind of behavior as crimes and enforces the corresponding laws. As much as I know, this is the case for your country. This hopefully answers your second posting too. Greetings, Victor Manta --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/ Remove "um" from the e-mail address to reply --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Rodney" wrote in message ... Hi Victor, My problem is that we have had, from what I can see a selective history ethic in our schools, which is however, changing for the better. I personally do feel some responsibility, not for what has happened in the past, but for some in my generation that do not have the generosity of spirit to offer a simple apology, that goes toward reconciliation of our collective whole. One can argue the folly or otherwise, of such feeling or desire, but the fact remains, it is what I feel in my heart, not my head. What cost an apology? I feel empathy for these poor people that have been so abused in our past, I think it brotherly to show we share and understand their pain. Rgds |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
"Victor Manta" wrote in message
... Our current Prime Minister hasn't the bottle to offer a simple apology. (Rodney) Hi Rodney, Of course, it is your right to "feel in my heart, not my head" or anyway else. :-) You are also free to present your excuses to anyone you wish for anything you wish (as long as you do it in your name). It isn't the same for a Prime Minister to present excuses, as long as neither s/he nor people that s/he represents directly participated in these crimes. It is necessary and sufficient that the Constitution of a country qualifies these kind of behavior as crimes and enforces the corresponding laws. As much as I know, this is the case for your country. This hopefully answers your second posting too. Greetings, Victor Manta Victor, I think you nee to realize that apologies fall into two categories. One, the kind you are talking about, is when there is direct personal responsibility. The other is simply a way of expressing regret. For example, if your friend's mother died you might well say "I am sorry that your mother died" even though it had nothing to do with you. I think this is the sort of apology that is being discussed here. If the prime minister made such an apology it would not be an admission that present day white Australians bear any personal responsibility for events long ago. Rather it would be an acknowledgement and expression of regret that this wretched treatment of the native people *did* happen. -- Peter Aitken Remove the crap from my email address before using. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Peter,
Therefore, as I understand your opinion, the First Minister of Mongolia should indeed present his excuses to Russia, China and to dozens of other countries, because the atrocities committed by his ancestors in the distant past *did* happen. And that, consequently, the official, elected representatives of different native tribes worldwide should officially present their apologies for the massacres that they permanently perpetrated in the past against all who happened to live on the same territory (natives like them or not)? I just wonder if I speak here about a third category of massacres and injustices, about which any remembrance is politically incorrect... I continue to think that a country shows its respect for the humans of the past, present and future by implementing a proper political system and not by (thousand of) reciprocal excuses for times when the individual rights weren't properly observed (by nobody!). Victor Manta --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org Art on Stamps: http://values.ch Romania Shown by Its Stamps: http://marci-postale.com Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/ Spanish Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/ Remove "um" from the e-mail address to reply --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Peter Aitken" wrote in message .com... "Victor Manta" wrote in message ... Our current Prime Minister hasn't the bottle to offer a simple apology. (Rodney) Hi Rodney, Of course, it is your right to "feel in my heart, not my head" or anyway else. :-) You are also free to present your excuses to anyone you wish for anything you wish (as long as you do it in your name). It isn't the same for a Prime Minister to present excuses, as long as neither s/he nor people that s/he represents directly participated in these crimes. It is necessary and sufficient that the Constitution of a country qualifies these kind of behavior as crimes and enforces the corresponding laws. As much as I know, this is the case for your country. This hopefully answers your second posting too. Greetings, Victor Manta Victor, I think you nee to realize that apologies fall into two categories. One, the kind you are talking about, is when there is direct personal responsibility. The other is simply a way of expressing regret. For example, if your friend's mother died you might well say "I am sorry that your mother died" even though it had nothing to do with you. I think this is the sort of apology that is being discussed here. If the prime minister made such an apology it would not be an admission that present day white Australians bear any personal responsibility for events long ago. Rather it would be an acknowledgement and expression of regret that this wretched treatment of the native people *did* happen. -- Peter Aitken |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
As a white person in the United States, I'm often made to feel guilty
about slavery. Since my ancestors all imigrated to Canada in the early to mid-1800s, never owned slaves and never had anything to do with slavery in any form I cannot feel any guilt. Another line is used that even so, you have benifited from slavery. Well so have the decsendents of the slaves as they live in a country far better, far freer, more prosperous and with a high standard of living when compared to any of the present day countries of Africa their ancestors may have come from. By the reverse you can also say the troubles in Liberia have been caused by freed American slaves (curious history there and my first experience that African Black people did not like American Black people). There isn't a country on this planet that hasn't been responsible for wrongs commited on another country or its own people. The far better thing for all of us to do is to stop apologizing or trying to inflict guilt on others, work to live together in peace and harmony. Dave (whew!) "Victor Manta" wrote in message ... Peter, Therefore, as I understand your opinion, the First Minister of Mongolia should indeed present his excuses to Russia, China and to dozens of other countries, because the atrocities committed by his ancestors in the distant past *did* happen. And that, consequently, the official, elected representatives of different native tribes worldwide should officially present their apologies for the massacres that they permanently perpetrated in the past against all who happened to live on the same territory (natives like them or not)? I just wonder if I speak here about a third category of massacres and injustices, about which any remembrance is politically incorrect... I continue to think that a country shows its respect for the humans of the past, present and future by implementing a proper political system and not by (thousand of) reciprocal excuses for times when the individual rights weren't properly observed (by nobody!). Victor Manta -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org Art on Stamps: http://values.ch Romania Shown by Its Stamps: http://marci-postale.com Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/ Spanish Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/ Remove "um" from the e-mail address to reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - "Peter Aitken" wrote in message .com... "Victor Manta" wrote in message ... Our current Prime Minister hasn't the bottle to offer a simple apology. (Rodney) Hi Rodney, Of course, it is your right to "feel in my heart, not my head" or anyway else. :-) You are also free to present your excuses to anyone you wish for anything you wish (as long as you do it in your name). It isn't the same for a Prime Minister to present excuses, as long as neither s/he nor people that s/he represents directly participated in these crimes. It is necessary and sufficient that the Constitution of a country qualifies these kind of behavior as crimes and enforces the corresponding laws. As much as I know, this is the case for your country. This hopefully answers your second posting too. Greetings, Victor Manta Victor, I think you nee to realize that apologies fall into two categories. One, the kind you are talking about, is when there is direct personal responsibility. The other is simply a way of expressing regret. For example, if your friend's mother died you might well say "I am sorry that your mother died" even though it had nothing to do with you. I think this is the sort of apology that is being discussed here. If the prime minister made such an apology it would not be an admission that present day white Australians bear any personal responsibility for events long ago. Rather it would be an acknowledgement and expression of regret that this wretched treatment of the native people *did* happen. -- Peter Aitken |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
"Victor Manta" wrote in message
... Peter, Therefore, as I understand your opinion, the First Minister of Mongolia should indeed present his excuses to Russia, China and to dozens of other countries, because the atrocities committed by his ancestors in the distant past *did* happen. And that, consequently, the official, elected representatives of different native tribes worldwide should officially present their apologies for the massacres that they permanently perpetrated in the past against all who happened to live on the same territory (natives like them or not)? I just wonder if I speak here about a third category of massacres and injustices, about which any remembrance is politically incorrect... I continue to think that a country shows its respect for the humans of the past, present and future by implementing a proper political system and not by (thousand of) reciprocal excuses for times when the individual rights weren't properly observed (by nobody!). Victor Manta -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying any government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I saying that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an apology does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the group giving the apology. That's all - nothing more. Peter G. Aitken |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
GLIMPSES OF A MYSTERY | GLIMPSES OF A MYSTERY | Books | 0 | August 29th 04 06:07 AM |
FA: CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN PHILOSOPHY - PERSONAL STATEMENTS - Two Volume Set | DuLaze | Books | 0 | June 30th 04 07:15 PM |
Ira has been served! | Ira Stein | Coins | 53 | May 8th 04 08:48 PM |
Interesting case | Ned Flanders | Coins | 1 | April 16th 04 10:34 PM |
FS: 1989 "Personal Fouls" (N.C. State Basketaball) 1st Edition Hardcover Book | J.R. Sinclair | Basketball | 0 | November 25th 03 05:31 AM |