Storing fountain pens with ink in them?

I wrote:

Esterbrook J w/steel nib (not the more expensive
osmiridiu tipped nib) = 2.00

This is incorrect. The J pen came standard with a Master Re-New Point
which was tipped with osmiridium and a bit more expensive than the
Osmiridium nib. The J had a visulated section. A Model B (smaller than
the J and with a solid, nonvisulated section) with a Durachrome Point
would set you back $1. The same pen with an Osmiridium Point would set
you back $1.50. A Model B with a Master Re-New Point (steel) would set
you back $1.75. So, even among steel-nibbed pens one could pay a
premium for higher quality nibs. In 1941 you could buy a Parker
Parkette with a visulated section and an osmiridium-tipped 14k gold
nib for $1.95 or a nice Sheaffer Junior Balance (long model) in
striped radite in either a lever filler or vac filler with 14k nib for
$2.75. The upshot here is that one did not have to pay a $70 to $90
premium for a gold-nibbed pen back then, as Virgilio claimed. -- B

"Harry F. Leopold"

I doubt that it would have taken the price to much
more than $1.00 total in 1925 on my "All Write"
nib and most other second and third tier pens.
First tier pens might have run a bit higher, maybe
a buck .50.

Hi Harry... Thanks for all the good info. Yes, the point is that gold
nibs were extremely common back in the heyday of fountain pens, not
"used
sparingly for elite pens only" as Virgiliopoeta claimed. In 1926
Ingersoll sold a Dollar Pen that had a 14k nib. The entire pen cost a
dollar. That All Write of yours was not an elite pen (no offense
intended). I have a mid-30s Eclipse here with a 14k Warranted nib.
Again, Eclipses were not elite pens, but this one came with a 14k nib.
In 1940 you would pay $10 for a Vacumatic Senior Maxima, $2.75 for a
Parker Challenger, and $1.95 for a Parkette, all of which had 14k
nibs. The big vac was certainly an elite pen, but the Challenger and
Parkette were not. In 1941 you'd pay $2.00 for an Estie J with a steel
nib. If you wanted, you could have a gold-nibbed pen made by Parker
for a nickel less. And so it went.

How's that feed coming? -- B

BL wrote:
"Harry F. Leopold"

I doubt that it would have taken the price to much
more than $1.00 total in 1925 on my "All Write"
nib and most other second and third tier pens.
First tier pens might have run a bit higher, maybe
a buck .50.

Hi Harry... Thanks for all the good info. Yes, the point is that gold
nibs were extremely common back in the heyday of fountain pens, not
"used
sparingly for elite pens only" as Virgiliopoeta claimed. In 1926
Ingersoll sold a Dollar Pen that had a 14k nib. The entire pen cost a
dollar. That All Write of yours was not an elite pen (no offense
intended). I have a mid-30s Eclipse here with a 14k Warranted nib.
Again, Eclipses were not elite pens, but this one came with a 14k nib.
In 1940 you would pay $10 for a Vacumatic Senior Maxima, $2.75 for a
Parker Challenger, and $1.95 for a Parkette, all of which had 14k
nibs. The big vac was certainly an elite pen, but the Challenger and
Parkette were not. In 1941 you'd pay $2.00 for an Estie J with a steel
nib. If you wanted, you could have a gold-nibbed pen made by Parker
for a nickel less. And so it went.

How's that feed coming? -- B

All this grame weighting makes me feel like I'm in alt.drugs.dealers
ñ_ñ
Now, a question for Bernadette (or anyone wishing to help).

When did Omas start using Bock nibs? Is there a way to know whether a
nib is made by Omas or Bock?

I have a 75th years Omas milord. It has a 18k nib (in hitech finish).
I've noticed that this nib is stiffer than other 14k omas nibs I have;
is it Bock's? i also have 2 Omas MoMA wth 18k nibs (also in hitech
finsh) which are much softer.

Juan

Juan wrote:

All this grame weighting makes me feel like I'm in
alt.drugs.dealers ñ_ñ

How funny. I'll hasten to add, however, that I don't own one of those
supersensitive scales.

Now, a question for Bernadette (or anyone wishing
to help).

When did Omas start using Bock nibs? Is
there a way to know whether a nib is made by Omas
or Bock?

A couple of years ago I read an interview with OMAS's new CEO in
Stylus Magazine. He mentioned that they were planning or had recently
started to outsource their nib-making to Bock. It hasn't been long...
Two-three years maybe. Definitely after LVMH acquired the company. If
somebody has a copy of that Stylus Magazine article, they could look
it up for you. I read it at a friend's house and don't remember the
exact dates. But the CEO definitely mentioned when the outsourcing of
nibs started or was to have started.

I have a 75th years Omas milord. It has a 18k nib
(in hitech finish). I've noticed that this nib is
stiffer than other 14k omas nibs I have; is it
Bock's? i also have 2 Omas MoMA wth 18k nibs (also
in hitech finsh) which are much softer.

When did you buy the Milord? OMAS's 75th Anniversary was in 2000,
before LVMH acquired the company and well before they started
outsourcing nib production to Bock. Pre-Bock, OMAS nibs spanned the
range from truly flexible to soft to stiff as a nail. That was one of
the many things I loved about OMAS pens back then. If you bought the
Milord before 2004, the nib was probably made by OMAS. If you bought
it after 2004, it's anybody's guess. Even after the switch occurred,
they probably had some old nibs left over from the pre-Bock days. I
hate what OMAS has done to the Paragon and the celluloids so I haven't
been buying them. You're an ol' OMAS fan. What do you think about
their new styles, Juan?
-- B

On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:55:13 -0600, BL wrote
(in article Rvhdh.2080$5D1.1106@trnddc06):

"Harry F. Leopold"

I doubt that it would have taken the price to much
more than $1.00 total in 1925 on my "All Write"
nib and most other second and third tier pens.
First tier pens might have run a bit higher, maybe
a buck .50.

Hi Harry... Thanks for all the good info. Yes, the point is that gold
nibs were extremely common back in the heyday of fountain pens, not
"used
sparingly for elite pens only" as Virgiliopoeta claimed. In 1926
Ingersoll sold a Dollar Pen that had a 14k nib. The entire pen cost a
dollar. That All Write of yours was not an elite pen (no offense
intended).

None taken, I know that, I just happen to like how well the body and cap are
made. We are talking about one tough-built pen here, that still manages to
look classy. Sort of reminds me of Wallace Beery from "Dinner at Eight,"
well-dressed, but no one would ever mistake him for a fashion plate, or a
true gentleman. "A well-dressed thug," as Diane put it. There are times a
person needs a "well-dressed thug" in a pen, and this one could practically
double for a short night stick in an emergency yet still do an excellent bit
of writing when needed. All it needs is a better controlled ink flow to be
perfect in the role.

I have a mid-30s Eclipse here with a 14k Warranted nib.
Again, Eclipses were not elite pens, but this one came with a 14k nib.
In 1940 you would pay $10 for a Vacumatic Senior Maxima, $2.75 for a
Parker Challenger, and $1.95 for a Parkette, all of which had 14k
nibs. The big vac was certainly an elite pen, but the Challenger and
Parkette were not. In 1941 you'd pay $2.00 for an Estie J with a steel
nib. If you wanted, you could have a gold-nibbed pen made by Parker
for a nickel less. And so it went.

I know what you mean, Diane and I have looked at a lot of Parkettes and
others that had great bodies and 14 K nibs. I bid on some on occasions, so
far I keep getting out-bid on them, I seem to have better luck with the
better lines. (I don't think I should be complaining much about that, don't
you know? ;-)

How's that feed coming? -- B

I'm going to try the Waterman Spoon Feed idea, once I get the time, and the
Dremal. I need a new Dremal anyway, my old one disappeared a few years ago
during a move and I never got around to replacing it. Plus I want to see
about how to get the hard rubber off those two bowling balls, I *think* I
have figured out a way, but that may have to wait until spring and warm
weather. The land-lady seems to have a bit of a problem with cooking rubber
in the apartment, other than that she is unusually reasonable and forgiving.
;-)

She even likes our weird cat.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)

People like (paste name of favorite troll here) learned everything they will
ever know in Kindergarten, and they flunked that.

BL wrote:
Juan wrote:

All this grame weighting makes me feel like I'm in
alt.drugs.dealers ñ_ñ

How funny. I'll hasten to add, however, that I don't own one of those
supersensitive scales.

Now, a question for Bernadette (or anyone wishing
to help).

When did Omas start using Bock nibs? Is
there a way to know whether a nib is made by Omas
or Bock?

A couple of years ago I read an interview with OMAS's new CEO in
Stylus Magazine. He mentioned that they were planning or had recently
started to outsource their nib-making to Bock. It hasn't been long...
Two-three years maybe. Definitely after LVMH acquired the company. If
somebody has a copy of that Stylus Magazine article, they could look
it up for you. I read it at a friend's house and don't remember the
exact dates. But the CEO definitely mentioned when the outsourcing of
nibs started or was to have started.

I have a 75th years Omas milord. It has a 18k nib
(in hitech finish). I've noticed that this nib is
stiffer than other 14k omas nibs I have; is it
Bock's? i also have 2 Omas MoMA wth 18k nibs (also
in hitech finsh) which are much softer.

When did you buy the Milord? OMAS's 75th Anniversary was in 2000,
before LVMH acquired the company and well before they started
outsourcing nib production to Bock. Pre-Bock, OMAS nibs spanned the
range from truly flexible to soft to stiff as a nail. That was one of
the many things I loved about OMAS pens back then. If you bought the
Milord before 2004, the nib was probably made by OMAS. If you bought
it after 2004, it's anybody's guess. Even after the switch occurred,
they probably had some old nibs left over from the pre-Bock days. I
hate what OMAS has done to the Paragon and the celluloids so I haven't
been buying them. You're an ol' OMAS fan. What do you think about
their new styles, Juan?
-- B

Hi Bernadette, thanks for the Omas input. I haven't tried nor held any
of the new Omas, I've seen some on display in a couple of shops, and I
didn't bother to ask the shop owner to show them to me, so draw your
own conclussions... you'll be right.

They're beautiful pens, but one of the things I like about Omas (I also
like that nib unpredictability) is their balance of beauty and
utilitarian/austerity. The new ones with the circle on the crown of the
cap, the fancy clip...makes them showing off pens, and I don't like
that. I love the MoMA because it's a class act in its simplicity; BTW,
I don't know why it's not seen on the web. It's a normal production pen
here.

I've seen some people on TV with the new Omas, which I hadn't noticed
with the old ones. Maybe Omas is using a more agressive advertizing or
making use of the LV status... I don't know. It looks like they're
going the Montblanc way.

Juan

Hi Bernadette!
I am not Juan (although Juan is the same in Spanish as Giovanni is in
Italian!!), still, I wanted to comment on the new OMAS pens.
I think it's a shame what has happened to OMAS. They were classy, beautiful
and true writers' pens.
Now they are pocket jewelry.
Pity,
Giovanni
"BL" wrote in message
news:Zrjdh.5387$QC.268@trnddc02...
You're an ol' OMAS fan. What do you think about
their new styles, Juan?
-- B

Medium-size steel nibs weigh around 1/3 gram (0,33 g), 14k gold nibs
about 4/5 gram (0,8 g).

I should perhaps add that the specific gravity of 14k gold is just a
tad less than twice that of stainless steel, which would lead one to
expect a weight of only 0,6 or 0,7 g for a 14k gold nib of a surface
area identical to that of a given stainless steel nib of weight 1/3 g.
However, 14k gold nibs are generally made a little thicker to
compensate for their lower tensile strength.

I note with approval that the absurd business of nibs weighing only
1/20 or 1/10 gram is now abandoned by all - though with very bad grace
(as usual) by BL. One has only to calculate the relative specific
gravities and surface areas of nibs relative to say, a copper penny,
then compare their thickness to a penny, and if necessary to a razor
blade (flatter than a nib and easier to compare), to know that a gold
nib can scarcely weigh much less than half a gram, and can easily weigh
much more. Only a very thin, small flexible gold nib can be got out at
less than half a gram or so.

Turning to this laughable business of imagining that gold nibs have
ever been cheap or at all common, people always fail to appreciate the
full consequences of inflation. To our ancestors a dollar was a major
amount of money. The average American wage in the 1890s was close to
one dollar per day, and this was regarded with awe and envy by much of
the world. In the American South the average daily wage was on the
order of 20 cents per diem. Today the average American wage is on the
order of $300 per diem, though the median wage is much less, and taxes
are much higher. And although the living standard has risen, it has
risen much less than most people suppose. If one compares prices and
wages of a century ago, it is very doubtful that the living standard
has even doubled. For the majority it has hardly increased at all.The
American of 1900 planned his budgets in cents, not in dollars, and to
him a cent was almost as valuable as a dollar is to us, in the South
much more so. Furthermore, Americans had to save for their old age, and
were more frugal than nowadays. Therefore a gold nib for 'a dollar or
two' (at least $50, and more probably $70-90) was to him quite
unaffordable. The introduction of stainless steel nibs in 1926 was
hailed as at last making the fountain pen really practical for the
masses.

In article . com,
"virgiliopoeta" wrote:

I note with approval that the absurd business of nibs weighing only
1/20 or 1/10 gram is now abandoned by all - though with very bad grace
(as usual) by BL. One has only to calculate the relative specific
gravities and surface areas of nibs relative to say, a copper penny,
then compare their thickness to a penny, and if necessary to a razor
blade (flatter than a nib and easier to compare), to know that a gold
nib can scarcely weigh much less than half a gram, and can easily weigh
much more. Only a very thin, small flexible gold nib can be got out at
less than half a gram or so.

Try to babooozle 'em with bull**** all you want, Vergie, but I actually
took the trouble of weighing a few nibs:

OK I finally dug up some loose nibs and have accurate weights. All
weighed on a Gram Precision Pocket-Tech 200, capacity 200g, graduation
0.1g

6 Examples of Waterman #2 14K nibs, perhaps the most common nib of its
period found in the 52 and other 2-series mainstream pens:

A. 0.4g 0.0141 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0082 oz / 0.2325g
B. 0.3g 0.0106 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0062 oz / 0.1758g
C. 0.3g 0.0106 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0062 oz / 0.1758g
D. 0.4g 0.0141 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0082 oz / 0.2325g
E. 0.3g 0.0106 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0062 oz / 0.1758g
F. 0.3g 0.0106 oz 58.5% gold content 0.0062 oz / 0.1758g

The differences are probably due to ink accumulation (none of the nibs
is clean). The Waterman #2, probably the most common nib of the late
19th and early 20th centuries. Significantly less than half a gram to my
thinking. No doubt there is some kind of magic economic argument that
can prove 0.3g in 1904 masses at 2kg now, First Law of Thermodynamics be
damned.

One Waterman "100-Year" 18K nib, a big nib used in the 100-Year pens
which were high-end:

0.7g 0.0247 oz 75.0% gold content 0.0185 oz

This pen was expensive. The remaining examples remain expensive.

In a 1923 price list, a Waterman 52 lever fill in plain black hard
rubber and 14K nib was $2.50. Now these were Waterman's bottom of the
line pens. The expensive ones had rolled gold or solid gold overlays.
The same price list shows a 552-1/2 with a 14K gold decorative overlay
for $27.00.

Now that's an elite pen, and yet its price has little to do with the
composition of the nib. Any pen with or without a nib with a solid gold
overlay is going to be quite expensive, no matter the decade.

In a printed ad from 1893 (quoted from Fountain Pens United States of
America and United Kingdom, by Andreas Lambrou, p. 24) the copy goes as
follows:
"Waterman's Ideal Fountain Pen [Eyedropper fill] Is The Best Christmas
Present! .... Because it is made in many styles. In [hard] rubber, plain
or ornamental, $2.50 to $7.50; in solid sterling silver, $7.00 to
$10.00; in solid gold, with or without jewels, $20.00 to $250.00."

For a little more info we turn to Robert Astyk of Lion and Pen:

"The 1926 Waterman Catalogue offered a round 100 different nibs. The
numbers 2, 4, 5 and 6 could be had in short, medium or long in a total
of 11 widths. The short, medium and long refer to the length of the
taper from breather hole to tip and roughly correspond to firm,
semi-flexible and flexible. The widths were fine, medium, coarse, stub
and oblique with the last two only available in the short version. The
number 8 nib only came in short and medium while the number 10 came in
short only. Further special nibs for stenographers, bookkeepers,
accountants, manifolding, a ball point and an extra broad stub could be
had in all 6 sizes. Special Falcon, ruling, music, duo-point and a
special broad stub were available only in the #4 size. Other special
nibs could be had by submitting specifications and paying $1 over the
price of a new nib."
http://www.lionandpen.com/RAstyk/WatermanNumbers.html

And as Bern has already pointed out exactly 0 of these were steel nibs.

Furthermore, in 1901 the L.E. Waterman Company was selling 1,000 pens
per day. That is 365,000 pens per year. The U.S. Census reports that in
1901 the US population was 77,584,000 (rounded to the nearest thousand).
That's one pen for every 212 people in the US. "Elite"?
http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/nation/popclockest.txt

And that's just Waterman. "Waterman dominated the market at the turn of
the century, when seven out of ten fountain pens bore the company's
trademark." (Fountain Pens Vintage and Modern by Andreas Lambrou, p. 39)
Parker, Sheaffer, and Wahl were catching up and there was true
competition by the 1920s.

So what? If all someone has to offer this discussion is hyperbole, ad
hominem attacks, a complete lack of reliable statistics, no
documentation, no references, well it certainly seems to be a complete
waste of bandwidth.

OTOH, not that much else is going on here at a.c.p-p so what's a little
childish name calling to enliven the day?


--Jon

--
jon fabian
looked good on paper
f a b i a n "at" p a n i x "dot" c o m

virgiliopoeta wrote:

... The introduction of stainless steel nibs in
1926 ...

Name one American-made pen prior to 1940 that had a stainless steel
nib. And, no, I won't accept an answer like, "Millions of them were
available."

-- B