Warning about 2nd chance offer emails

Tony Cooper formulated on Monday :
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:46:04 -0500, Stewart Vernon
wrote:

Once I send the 2nd chance offer (the message that comes from eBay
to the potential buyer), I always send a short follow-up email at
the same time that just says "Hey, I saw you bid on this auction,
but were outbid. I have another one that I was going to list next
week, but wanted to offer it to you first. If you aren't
interested, just ignore this email and the one from eBay."


Just to stir the pot a little, that coin guy - Frank something - was
severely criticized in this group for using his eBay customer list to
solicit additional sales by notifying past bidders of current
auctions.

Isn't what you've outlined above basically the same thing? It is
using customer information that has come to you as a result of an eBay
auction to solicit additional sales.

Just for the record, I have absolutely no objections to Frank's
practice or to yours. Both of you are using leverage to increase
sales without causing harm. I just think it's amusing that we have a
goose, a gander, and sauce here.

I agree. Most collectors are grateful when they get a notice of
something they
might want becomes available.

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R. Totale used his keyboard to write :
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:28:53 GMT, Tony Cooper
wrote:


I suspect that quite a bit of emailing goes on in the specialized
collector market, and we just don't know about it. This newsgroup
seems to be primarily general merchandize buyers and sellers.

The problem is the gray area in the collector market. I might buy a
piece of Mary Gregory glass, but that doesn't mean that I'm a Mary
Gregory glass collector. I may have just liked the particular item.

I both sell and buy collector merchandise, and I don't see a grey area
at all. I never want to receive unsoliticited commercial email from
anyone at any time for any reason, and buying one widget from you
positively does not constitute solicitation for further offers. Only
the most loathsome and class-free of sellers would even consider this
an acceptable practice.

If you have a business relationship with a party, that is they
purchased from
you before, then it is legal to communicate with them. It cannot be
considered
spam.

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Tom Rogers wrote:
I agree. Most collectors are grateful when they get a notice of
something they
might want becomes available.

Is there a reason you have goofy line breaks, just like that Frank guy?
Nevermind, probably nothing...

Anyways, I do appreciate an email from a dealer when something I want
becomes available. However, it's got to be specific to my collecting
needs. "Here's something from your want list" is appreciated. "Here's a
list of one thousand coins I have for sale" is not.

--
Bob

Stewart Vernon wrote on 3/22/2005 :
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:51:47 -0500, R. Totale
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:28:53 GMT, Tony Cooper
wrote:


I suspect that quite a bit of emailing goes on in the specialized
collector market, and we just don't know about it. This newsgroup
seems to be primarily general merchandize buyers and sellers.

The problem is the gray area in the collector market. I might buy a
piece of Mary Gregory glass, but that doesn't mean that I'm a Mary
Gregory glass collector. I may have just liked the particular item.

I both sell and buy collector merchandise, and I don't see a grey area
at all. I never want to receive unsoliticited commercial email from
anyone at any time for any reason, and buying one widget from you
positively does not constitute solicitation for further offers. Only
the most loathsome and class-free of sellers would even consider this
an acceptable practice.

What's interesting here... and I agree with you... I save email
addresses from people who have bought from me in the past... but
NOT so I can spam them with future offers... Instead, I keep the
email addresses to help me recognize if someone is a return
customer.

I don't make return customers wait for personal checks to clear,
for instance, since they have earned a level of trust from me from
their previous purchase... and I also like to be able to say
"Thanks for coming back" or address them by name if I know it, to
show them that I do remember and appreciate them.

Now... the interesting part... Remember when the do-not-call list
thing was launched nationally so you can get your phone number off
the list of marketers and such? Well, one of the loopholes in the
do-not-call list is if you have done business with the company
within XX period of time, they can call you for other offers
because you have a business relationship with them.

Meaning... MCI can't spam me if I put my name on the list... but
BellSouth could, since they are my phone provider... Now, I don't
do this on eBay... and don't intend to either... but I wonder...
if it is something eBay could really enforce in lieu of the
government's stand on this? If a class-action suit (and we know
how people love to litigate!) was started, I wonder if eBay could
defend that particular rule?

-Stewart
Stewart's Comics )
http://www.indenter.com/comics

Precisely...it's simply a self-serving ebay rule to try and get a cut
of all future
business you have with a contact. If the seller is willing to work his
contact list,
ebay doesn't deserve a dime. Once you have done business with someone,
additional email cannot be considered spam.

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Angrie.Woman was thinking very hard :
"Tony Cooper" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:51:37 GMT, "Angrie.Woman"
wrote:


"Tony Cooper" wrote in message
...

Just to stir the pot a little, that coin guy - Frank something - was
severely criticized in this group for using his eBay customer list to
solicit additional sales by notifying past bidders of current
auctions.


Just for the record, I have absolutely no objections to Frank's
practice.........


I think it's only acceptable on an opt-in basis. It would be just too much
email if everybody did this? My buyers account is up to 110 FB, and I've
probably bought twice that. If each of those sellers decided to drop me a
note every time they listed something, I'd be broke. I mean...buried in
email!

I think it depends on the market niche. Collectors - coins, stamps,
and certain restricted specialty areas - would be likely to find the
practice acceptable. If you're looking for an autograph of President
Polk, you wouldn't mind an email alerting you to an auction of such an
item.

Even in niche markets, the sheer number of sellers would limit the usefulness
of the method. If someone buys the Polk signature, does the seller know what
the buyer wanted it for? Does he collect Polk memorabilia? Presidential
signatures? Autographs? Anything by people named James?

A

It's not rocket science. Anything that's collected in sets...stamps,
sport cards, coins...
the collectors tend to start out with the easy items and work up to the
tough ones.
If a coin colllector buys a 1909-S Lincoln cent, they probably don't
yet have the
1909-S-VDB, and would certainly appreciate a heads up if one is
available. Ebay
should stay out of it.

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Wildwood pretended :
Tony Cooper you up next, work it out
now.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:40:31 GMT, Wildwood
wrote:

Tony Cooper you up next, work it out
now.

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:46:04 -0500, Stewart Vernon
wrote:

Once I send the 2nd chance offer (the message that comes from eBay
to the potential buyer), I always send a short follow-up email at
the same time that just says "Hey, I saw you bid on this auction,
but were outbid. I have another one that I was going to list next
week, but wanted to offer it to you first. If you aren't
interested, just ignore this email and the one from eBay."


Just to stir the pot a little, that coin guy - Frank something - was
severely criticized in this group for using his eBay customer list to
solicit additional sales by notifying past bidders of current
auctions.

Isn't what you've outlined above basically the same thing? It is
using customer information that has come to you as a result of an eBay
auction to solicit additional sales.


No. A SCO is a one-time mailing that is expressly allowed by eBay's
TOS.

The comment was not about the SCO, but about the "short follow-up
email" that follows the SCO.


In addition each eBay member may set their eBay preferences to
not allow SCOs to be sent to them. So, a potential buyer possibly
receives one e-mail sent through eBay, with eBay's permission, and
they can, at any time, set their prefs to never receive that single
e-mail.

Sellers can create mail lists if they want to (if they ask their
customers' permission first) and be eBay-legal. Frank apparently did
not ask permission, but instead sent them to everyone he did business
with, feeling that the "pre-existing relationship" clause in phone
marketing and other non-computer spam-type rules applied.

However, my argument all along is that eBay has a very specific policy
on what is allowed by its users and what is not when it comes to
e-mailing other users. Frank broke eBay's e-mail policy, meeting
*eBay's* definition of SPAM. eBay doesn't care if someone sold
someone else something... that doesn't give them the right to e-mail
the buyer at any point in the future with advertisements.

Frank disagrees, and THAT's why he is called a spammer in here.

Clearer now?

Not really. What you've said is that Frank is/was doing something
that eBay says is improper. I don't recall any poster here saying
he/she received unsolicited emails from Frank bringing note to his
auctions.

Frank's first post on the subject was that he had just received an
e-mail from eBay that said that a former bidder had complained because
he sent them unsolicited commercial e-mail after their deal was done.

Franks then stated that of course he had... it was a time honored
tradition of coin sellers to create a mailing list of former
customers, and eBay was trying to destroy his rights of selling to
former buyers in one of his typical "ignore the rules, they don't
apply to me" month long rants that was cross posted to AMOE and RCC.

Google it you'd like... it's all documented there, including his
multiple confessions of undertaking activities that broke/break eBay's
e-mail policy.

So, no one is accusing him of anything he did not admit to first.
Straight from the horse's.... mouth..

So, Frank never spammed this group (as far as I know)

I never said he did. I said that the activities he admitted to broke
eBay's spam policy.

and
it is only the opinion of the non-involved people in this group that
Frank is/was a spammer.

Once again, no opinion, just the facts supplied by Frank himself.

We don't have any indication that his own
customer base considers him to be a spammer.

His initial complaint in this newsgroup was that he was reported by a
former customer to eBay for spamming them. How much proof do you
need?

He is wiser to listen to
his own customer base than to worry about the raging opinions of those
that are not involved with him.


He did and does neither. He sets his own policies, the opinions of
the recipients and the rules of the marketplaces that he agreed to be
damned. Once again, not a guess, but admissions from Frank.

I didn't follow the Great Frank Wars all that closely, but I'm not
even sure that Frank mailed to "everyone he did business with".

He admitted it.

Perhaps he stated that he did,

Yes.

or perhaps it was assumed that he did
because he said he felt he had the right to do so.

Yes again, at which time the "old timers" in the thread told the
people guessing it to use Google Groups to verify it.


It would be rather illogical of Frank to mail "everyone he did
business with".

That's Frank for you in a nutshell.

His buyers of some types of coins would not be buyers
of other types of coins. If he's a successful coin dealer, he knows
this.

*sigh* That statement alone shows that you were lucky enough to not
have read many of Frank's posts.

Consider yourself lucky. :-/

Bill

You are incorrect. Frank's first post was that someone claiming to be
from eBay
CALLED him on the phone saying not to send email. His question here
was to
ask if the phone call was legitimate. I can't believe that ebay would
telephone
someone about this, since ebay's traditional modus operandi is to send
form letters.
I don't think any of Frank's customers complained.

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Tony Cooper submitted this idea :
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 03:57:47 GMT, Wildwood
wrote:

Not really. What you've said is that Frank is/was doing something
that eBay says is improper. I don't recall any poster here saying
he/she received unsolicited emails from Frank bringing note to his
auctions.

Frank's first post on the subject was that he had just received an
e-mail from eBay that said that a former bidder had complained because
he sent them unsolicited commercial e-mail after their deal was done.

Franks then stated that of course he had... it was a time honored
tradition of coin sellers to create a mailing list of former
customers, and eBay was trying to destroy his rights of selling to
former buyers in one of his typical "ignore the rules, they don't
apply to me" month long rants that was cross posted to AMOE and RCC.

Cross-posting only exists beyond the first post when there is a reply.
When a cross-posted rant goes on and on, the finger points to both
sides.

Google it you'd like... it's all documented there, including his
multiple confessions of undertaking activities that broke/break eBay's
e-mail policy.

Confessions? Sounds more like a declaration of disagreement.

So the short form is that Frank willingly broke an eBay rule, appeared
here without remorse, participated in a rant (and was ranted back at),
and failed to convince the people of amoe that coin dealers have long
maintained customer lists and should be allowed to continue to do so,
and...well....what?

Other than espousing an unpopular position, alienating at least one of
his own customers, and endangering his own eBay account, what's the
deal?

Why not say "Frank, you're in violation of eBay rules, we don't
violate that particular rule, please don't come to us for sympathy."
and let it go?

He hasn't harmed anyone in amoe, he hasn't set the eBay structure of
order teetering, and he's apparently doing well enough as a coin
dealer and is ethical in dealing with his customers in transactions
with them.

It would be rather illogical of Frank to mail "everyone he did
business with".

That's Frank for you in a nutshell.

Did he also "confess" this, or is it an assumption?

His buyers of some types of coins would not be buyers
of other types of coins. If he's a successful coin dealer, he knows
this.

*sigh* That statement alone shows that you were lucky enough to not
have read many of Frank's posts.

You don't think he's successful? Why not?

If you check the link in his posting today, you'll see he has over
2,000 individual feedbacks (over 3,000 total) with a 99.7% positive
rating. Of his three recent negs, two were from the same seller and
one from a buyer. The buyer claims he paid, Frank claims the MO
wasn't received or cashed. Not a bad record at all for that kind of
volume.

I haven't bought, sold, or communicated with Frank. As far as I can
tell, he's just a guy with an unpopular opinion about how to run his
own business that's doing well enough without the support of amoe. I
can relate to that.

I believe Frank has been a full time brick and mortor coin dealer for
many years,
and is in fact on the board of the state regulatory body. I can
certainly understand
his disgust at ebay attempting to tell him that his exisiting business
practices are
inappropriate, especially when ebay's motives are patently
anticompetitive and likely
illegal.

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"Tom Rogers" wrote in message
et...

I believe Frank has been a full time brick and mortor coin dealer for
many years,
and is in fact on the board of the state regulatory body. I can
certainly understand
his disgust at ebay attempting to tell him that his exisiting business
practices are
inappropriate, especially when ebay's motives are patently
anticompetitive and likely
illegal.

Did Frank ever get his $47 back?



Rita

"Rita Ä Berkowitz" ritaberk2O04 @aol.com wrote in message
...
"Tom Rogers" wrote in message
et...

I believe Frank has been a full time brick and mortor coin dealer for
many years,
and is in fact on the board of the state regulatory body. I can
certainly understand
his disgust at ebay attempting to tell him that his exisiting business
practices are
inappropriate, especially when ebay's motives are patently
anticompetitive and likely
illegal.

Did Frank ever get his $47 back?



Rita



Yes

COIN AUCTIONS NO RESERVES http://www.frankcoins.com
Ebay Powerseller FRANKCOINS Texas Auction License 11259
Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
Member: Texas Numismatic Assoc, American Numismatic Assoc.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:28:49 GMT, Tom Rogers
wrote:

R. Totale used his keyboard to write :
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:28:53 GMT, Tony Cooper
wrote:


I suspect that quite a bit of emailing goes on in the specialized
collector market, and we just don't know about it. This newsgroup
seems to be primarily general merchandize buyers and sellers.

The problem is the gray area in the collector market. I might buy a
piece of Mary Gregory glass, but that doesn't mean that I'm a Mary
Gregory glass collector. I may have just liked the particular item.

I both sell and buy collector merchandise, and I don't see a grey area
at all. I never want to receive unsoliticited commercial email from
anyone at any time for any reason, and buying one widget from you
positively does not constitute solicitation for further offers. Only
the most loathsome and class-free of sellers would even consider this
an acceptable practice.

If you have a business relationship with a party, that is they purchased from you
before, then it is legal to communicate with them. It cannot be considered
spam.

If I'm the someone you're communicating with, =I= consider it spam. It
may not be illegal - you can argue that out with your ISP once I've
spamcopped you to them (and to eBay, if you're spamming your eBay
auctions). Legal doesn't mean unstupid, though.