The first coin - addenda

Ankaaz wrote:

Reid wrote:

"I don't see Alan William's messages here, and I hope not to see them in
Moneta-L either. What pathetic stuff. He starts a discussion there about coins
he doesn't collect and doesn't know a thing about -- and it's clear to everyone
who knows these coins he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about -- to try
to show that I'm wrong, in doing so totally misstating what I've said *here.* "

From Moneta-L's description: "Topics may include your collection, news and
events, requests for advice and attribution, historical discussion as related
to coins and more."

Based on the above and on the contents of his post, I'd say Alan has every
right to participate in the group. At least -he- knows what he's talking
about.

Your blasting him like that was a sucker punch. And you call -his- actions
pathetic.

Anka Z
Co-president of the once thriving, but now defunct, Tommy John Fan Club.
Go, Lake County Captains!

Here is what I wrote, in total:

Thanks for an excellent post, Patricia. Reid is apparently still
confused over the prophylactic qualities of a gorgon vs. the literal
depiction of a Gorgon.

As stated many times before, a penetrating and enlighting discussion of
the misinterpretation of Greek pre-historic iconography is to be found
in Robert Graves "The Greek Myths". No single 'cut-n-paste' simplistic
answer from that work will satisfy Reid's questions, but a complete
reading of the book would.

I do not expect it to be applied however, because it would fairly well
destroy Reid's thesis of "Medusa as a representative of terrifying
female sexuality", which I frankly consider to be wetter than Atlantis.

Alan Williams


And here is Reid's reply, which the moderators at Moneta-L have now
distributed via their e-mail digest:

Alan Williams, I'm going to ask you not to try to ruin discussions in this
moderated list as you have done so repeatedly in the unmoderated Usenet
discussion group rec.collecting.coin (RCC). Alan Williams is an Internet
stalker. He follows me around in RCC and posts only these kinds of skewed
negative messages in response to my messages, over and over. I have him
"killfiled" there, which prevents me from seeing his posts, because of his
activities. He has even gone to the extreme of making up lies in these
attacks, accusing me of breaking the law and saying that I tell others it's
OK to break the law. He has severe personal problems resulting from a
family tragedy, and he apparently feels that publicly venting helps him
somehow.

Above, as he usually does, Alan has completely misrepresented what I've
written. It is not *my* position that Medusa is a representation of
terrifying female sexuality, as I've clearly said. It's the position of
Ellen D. Reeder in her 1996 book Pandora: Women in Classical Greece and the
position of Page DuBois in her 1988 book Sewing the Body: Psychoanalysis
and Ancient Representations of Women, among others. I've clearly said that
I find this psychosexual explanation intriguing though I don't subscribe to
it myself. I've clearly said that in my own view an anthropological
explanation is more likely, with the Medusa image being originating from a
ritual mask common to primitive cults.

Moderators, be wary of Alan Williams. He'll seeks only to ruin discussions.

I think this is a savage and unprovoked attack. My attorney believes it
is actionable. I think Reid owed me an apology before this, and now he
owes me more than an apology.

Those are some nasty characterisations he made, as well as an invasion
of privacy.

In a second message, Reid wrote that '(Alan) has only read one book'. I
have read more than one book, Reid. I think you have a new research
opportunity before you.

Alan

Reid wrote:

"Because you're so objective and unbiased about this, you left out one little
detail: Moneta-L is about ancient coins (and to a much smaller extent medieval
coins)."

In my post, I quoted: "historical discussion as related to coins and more."
Alan has proven one more than several occasions here that he is eminently
knowledgeable when it comes to discussing history, ancient history in
particular. The fact that he is not a collector of ancient coins (do we know
for sure?) does not preclude him from posting to Moneta-L.


Reid: "What Alan did was show up, leave a gratuitous attack message..."

Anyone reading Alan's Moneta-L post and your response can determine who, in
fact, left a gratuitous attack message.









Anka Z
Co-president of the once thriving, but now defunct, Tommy John Fan Club.
Go, Lake County Captains!

Ankaaz wrote:

Reid wrote:

"Because you're so objective and unbiased about this, you left out one little
detail: Moneta-L is about ancient coins (and to a much smaller extent medieval
coins)."

In my post, I quoted: "historical discussion as related to coins and more."
Alan has proven one more than several occasions here that he is eminently
knowledgeable when it comes to discussing history, ancient history in
particular. The fact that he is not a collector of ancient coins (do we know
for sure?) does not preclude him from posting to Moneta-L.

Reid: "What Alan did was show up, leave a gratuitous attack message..."

Anyone reading Alan's Moneta-L post and your response can determine who, in
fact, left a gratuitous attack message.

Thanks, Ankaaz, I agree. Reid's actions speak for themselves and loudly.

I've been a Moneta-L member for months, and have posted a number of
messages. Most have been concerned with making my first ancient
purchase, which is I hope to do this coming week in Baltimore from
Harlan Berk or Thom Bray or some other worthy source. ;-)

I'm not going in with too many preconceptions, but I will be looking at
bronze, small denomination, Roman, between 200BC and 300AD. Interesting
designs with good detail at miserly price points will be scrutinized. ;-)

I think this spasm of Reid's was triggered by my agreeing with
Patricia's post. All you have to do to become 'an Internet Stalker'
apparently, is to disagree with that Horse's Ass. While they seemed
confused by the hostility at first, I believe the list moderators are in
the process of making it 'all right' now.

Alan

Alan posted:
Thanks, Ankaaz, I agree. Reid's actions speak for themselves and loudly.

(snip) some details removed for the sake of brevity (unsnip)

All you have to do to become 'an Internet Stalker' apparently, is to
disagree with that Horse's Ass. While they seemed confused by the
hostility at first, I believe the list moderators are in the process of
making it 'all right' now.

Alan
==================================

First post without your trademark signature?

In article ,
says...
The big question is, will Reid and Alan ever grow up?

I doubt it very much.

They act like children and unfortunately probably always will.

Watch for the childish reply to this post for an example of what I
mean. Billy




Billy, you are just a poo poo head. (Oops, I forgot who I was, sorry).
--
Copper is as copper does.

note.boy said:
Watch for the childish reply to this post for an example of what I mean.
==================================

That is a lie Billy. You've been repeating this lie over and over.
Telling people they post childish replies, telling people it's ok to
post childish replies, going to other newsgroups and twisting words
around so that it appeared that they posted childish replies in this
newsgroup, forcing them to re-post their childish replies in the other
newsgroup to defend their position.

vbg

In article 3652-3F23DE32-133@storefull-
2197.public.lawson.webtv.net, Steve Joyce spoke thusly...
note.boy said:
Watch for the childish reply to this post for an example of what I mean.
==================================

That is a lie Billy. You've been repeating this lie over and over.
Telling people they post childish replies, telling people it's ok to
post childish replies, going to other newsgroups and twisting words
around so that it appeared that they posted childish replies in this
newsgroup, forcing them to re-post their childish replies in the other
newsgroup to defend their position.

vbg

Heh, heh...been there, typed that. Won't do it again.

--
Stu Miller
Read about Coins in the News:
http://www.TheStujoeCollection.com/news.htm
Director, RCC Mint
http://www.TheStujoeCollection.com/rccmint

Reid Goldsborough , having plonked God and Man, spends
countless electrons yet again, explaining how he goes back to read the thread
in Google to view exactly those creatures he sought to avoid in the first
place.

I just looked through the messages in this thread, through Google Groups, as a
little analysis, a little exercise.

Reid..........Does that make any sense to even a half wit like you?

Always here for my fellow syngraphist or oenophile.
--=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=--

Reid Goldsborough wrote
I've been reading through more of the articles I'd gathered but hadn't
yet gotten around to reading about the world's first coins and
tweaking my page about what I consider to be the very first, adding
lots of additional stuff:
http://rg.ancients.info/lion/

I went back and read your page again. Nowhere did I see a statement
that the coin on that page is YOUR coin. The photograph you say you
took is not attributed, either. If I took a picture of a coin like
that one that I owned, and posted it on my webpage, it would have my
name on it, but that's just the way I am.

As you know, this is an area of numismatics that I also have some
interest in. I have published articles on the origins of coinage in
several periodicals including the Classical Numismatic Group Quarterly
and The Numismatist. You can also find several works online -- for
instance, www.limunltd.com/numismatica/articles/
origins-of-coinage.html and also
http://www.coin-newbies.com/articles/origin.html. So, I have some
basis for suggesting that you look again at your presentation,
especially because you deliver this to "newbies" as an "educational"
page.

I always thought that Ernst Curtius was German. You cite him as
English. (It can be hard to tell. Often, the Alfo"ldi team is called
"German" because their publications appear more often in that language
than in their native Hungarian.) The British Royal Family brought a
lot of other Germans to England, so this could be a questionable
identification. The only paper I have from Curtius appeared in the
Monatsbericht of the Prussian Academy.

In fact, I recommend Alfo"ldi's ANTIKE NUMISMATIK as a guide, if not a
source. (Fortunately, it is in German, not Magyar. Christmas cards
in Hungarian are painful enough.)

Also in German is perhaps the single most important work bearing
relevance to your interest: Probleme der frühen Elektronprägung by
Liselotte Weidauer. You do cite Weidauer on your site. However, you
have said in RCC that you do not read German. Therefore, I ask: is
this in fact a SECONDARY citation, a reference from a reference, as
opposed to a paper you actually have read and critically considered?

The dating of coins -- especially these archaics -- is a sticky
problem. Allow me to suggest this webpage:
http://www.flwi.ugent.be/AAHE/numismatiek.doc. This is a presentation
of NUMISMATIEK VAN DE OUDHEID (Numismatics of Antiquity) by Herbert
Verreth. The salient paragraph is this:

"Volgens Charles Seltman (bv. 1952, p. 28; 1955, p. 15-17) en andere
geleerden ontstond de munt ca. 690-685, onder Gyges, de schatrijke
koning van Lydia (ca. 690-652), waarrond heel wat mythen bestonden
[cf. Herodotos, 1, 8-15]. Ze namen evenwel niet de gehele
muntproductie in beschouwing zodat deze vroege datering door de meeste
geleerden wordt verworpen. Ook Liselotte Weidauer (1975) suggereerde
op basis van stijlonderzoek een datum ca. 685, maar stijl is steeds
een gevaarlijk criterium."

(My Dutch is pretty weak: "Following Charles Seltman.. and other
researchers assigned the coin ca. 690-685 from Gyges, the (pretender;
usurper) king of Lydia (ca 690-652), around whom are many myths
[Herodotus]. His name is known better than his coins so that this
question of dating even most researchers are uncertain. Also,
Liselotte Weidnaer (1975) suggests based on stylistic examination a
date c. 685, even though style is certainly a dangerous criterion."

Another webpage presents "A COIN OF GYGES" by Prof. Gerald M. Browne
(Urbana IL)
which is based on a Harlan J. Berk sale from 1992. I do not know who
was attributing Berk's ancients then. Lorber, I thought, only came
over after the collapse of McFall's business after 1993. Gyges
antedates Alyattes. A coin with a name on it is more a statement of
authority and a promise of value than a coin with an animal head.
Also, a key reference to the electrum issues of Gyges as payment to
mercenaries is known directly from a credible archaic Greek source.

You challenged me to offer up some other coin as "the first coin" and
to defend my claim. I must demur. I first published about the
origins of coinage in 1994. In the last eight years, I have read
much, seen more than a few coins both hands-on and in pictures,
written about them, etc., etc., and all I can say is "I don't know."
I _DO_ know the size and shape of the problem (I think), but I am
prevented from doing more than just reading the works of others. I
know only at best two dozen characters in Chinese, and have no
facility with their ancient scripts. I know no Semetic languages in
cuneiform. I cannot read Sanskrit alphabets. So, I hesitate to swim
in deep waters. I _DO_ know where the deep water is. You seem not to
see the buoys.

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:43:19 +0100, Ian
wrote:

I would have thought you would be more interested in the little Lion
obols (lions head facing / quadripartite incuse) from Pantikapaeum circa
6th - 5thC bc the way you marvel about things Thracian. Not a whisper of
your favourite area. Tsk Tsk.

Thanks for talking coins, Ian. Really. But Pantikapaion (Panticapaeum)
was not part of Thrace. It was north of it, though for expediency in
some catalogs and references coins from Pantikapaion are lumped in
with coins from the Greek colonies along the Thracian coast and with
the coins from the Thracian tribes of the interior to the west of the
Black Sea. Pantikapaion was also a Greek colony, but it was situated
in the southernmost part of Skythia (Scythia), which is current-day
Crimea, Ukraine. Thrace has had different boundaries throughout the
ages, and there's some disagreement over whether the Dacians to the
north of the Danube River were Thracian, and no doubt some Thracians
settled in Pantikapaion, but Pantikapaion was never considered in
ancient times a part of Thrace.

I like some of the coins from Pantikapaion, particularly the bronzes
depicting Pan. The rulers of Pantikapaion also minted these Pan coins
in silver and gold, but they're very pricey. The bronzes are
affordable and very cool.

--

Coin Collecting: Consumer Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos