How many 'collect' non-functioning pens?

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...

[snip]


It can be done, but would it be profitable? My other hobby is
bicycling, which has been endowed with dozens of CNC makers of parts.
Most of those have fallen by the wayside because production is much
slower than the more traditional cold forging method, and part
failures were much higher with CNC'd parts because of metallurgical
issues (grain structure in cold forged versus machined components).


I don't think a bicycle would serve as a good illustration for the
feasibility of manufacturing with CNC machines. Bicycles are mainly tubular
structure connected by welding. Only a small number of parts like the gear
sprockets have some machined parts. I would think a shaver would be a closer
example. But it isn't all CNC work. The pen body forexample if made from
polymers would injection moulded. You know how cheaply these things are
manufactured.

[snip]


The cost of producing a Snorkel would be much higher than the cost of
producing the replica Balances.

Agreed.

When Parker created the reissue 51s,
they were superficially similar but vastly different from a design
perspective, because it was not cost-effective to reproduce the
original 51. The Snorkel would be worse yet in this regard. Indeed,
if it was profitable then some independent person with access to a
milling machine would be doing it already.

Parker did what it had to do with the 51 SE because of pressure from the
board to produce something with high yield profit. So, something has to
give. But a Snorkel is a Snorkel. There isn't much option for compromises.
It must meet those design criteria in order to work. Whether it will be
profitable, that is a moot point. It all depends on the quantity to be
manufactured. When you see a $100 pen. Only a small percentage of it is
attributed to material and manufacturing cost. You will be surprised how
much hidden cost constitute the selling price of the pen. Distribution,
advertising, inventory, profit for agents and profit for retailers. If
marketed in the conventional way, the Snorkel doesn't stand a chance. But if
Sheaffer were to sell direct like Dell. That could be a different story.
--
Best regards,
Free Citizen
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet

"Patrick Lamb" wrote in message
...


[snip]


I'm not sure the CNC slant is relevant. CNC is fine for limited
numbers of expensive parts, but my impression is it's not the
preferred way to manufacture large numbers of inexpensive parts. And
the latter is how the electronics industry you reference makes money.

Besides which, you have to remember what the competition is. If
you're trying to sell a workhorse pen, the real competition in the
marketplace is 12 ballpoints for $1, or a dozen rollerballs for $3.
Before I rediscovered fountain pens, I was using a Parker Jotter
ballpoint, and catching flak for using a $4-5 pen. How much do you
want this new snorkel to cost?? I suspect you'd have a hard time
selling a million pens at $20 each -- and if you did, have you thought
the finances through to how you'd set up a factory and produce those
pens (factory, equipment, parts, and labor) for $20M?

I guess my bottom line is, bringing back the snorkel is probably
technically and technologically feasible, but I doubt it's financially
feasible.

Pity.

Pat

Email address works as is.

It is not all CNC Pat, for the main parts it would be polymer and these
would be injection moulded parts. The cost for plastic injection moulded
parts are very low. As I have said, Sheaffer need not commit itself to
capital investment for this venture. It can outsource. The only thing is
that it must produce in quantities in order to have economy of scale.

"SMSmith007" wrote in message
...
I guess my bottom line is, bringing back the snorkel is probably
technically and technologically feasible, but I doubt it's financially
feasible.

Vintage Snorkels in working condition are not in short supply. How many
buyers
are there for a "New Snorkel" at say $100 a pop when you can buy a nice
vintage
one with a 14kt nib for $30 or so?

You are talking about pen enthusiast market. That is tiny. The likes of
Sheaffer cannot survive from this minuscule market. I am talking about
selling to the masses. Meaning, sell a Snorkel instead of a Prelude.
--
Best regards,
Free Citizen
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet

"Curtis L. Russell" wrote in message
...


[snip]


Hardly my argument. The issue is whether or not it can be best made in
the U.S. I don't think that is the case nor do I think it is likely.

I do disagree as to the potential market. I think it is small and no
matter how you set up manufacturing, the snorkel is going to be more
expensive to make than its competitors. Not enough people will see the
benefits IMO and many of the current adherents may have trouble
purchasing a new one if it is more than the available working older
pens.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Here you too are envisioning a very small market of pen enthusiasts. How
many members does PCA have? 1800? Out of these 1800 or so, how many are fans
of Sheaffer? And out of these devotees of Sheaffer, how many would be
interested to buy a new Snorkel. It would hardly make up the number to
justify the re-introduction of the Snorkel. We can all yap to our hearts
content in this forum and any other forum there are in the www and the likes
of Sheaffer doesn't give a damn. We are an insignificant number of pen users
these big manufacturers are targeting. We have two, three generations who
have never seen a Snorkel. If it were to be introduced today and with some
advertising, it could be a hit. There seems to be a resurgence of interest
in fountain pen in the developed countries. This may be as good a time to
bring back the Snorkel.
--
Best regards,
Free Citizen
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:13:01 +0800, "Free Citizen"
wrote:

I don't think a bicycle would serve as a good illustration for the
feasibility of manufacturing with CNC machines. Bicycles are mainly tubular
structure connected by welding. Only a small number of parts like the gear
sprockets have some machined parts. I would think a shaver would be a closer
example. But it isn't all CNC work. The pen body forexample if made from
polymers would injection moulded. You know how cheaply these things are
manufactured.

And I think you misunderstand what goes into a high quality bike.
While the tube set is important, it is in many ways the easiest from
the design and assembly point-of-view. The typical CNC parts are the
crank set and rear derailleur, with the main issues being with the
crank set. CNC simply has a record of failure and this is when done by
experts like the Cooks. And it makes no sense for true mass
production.

Tolerances at the machined surfaces are easily the equal of pens, if
not that of true high speed bearing surfaces. OTOH, CNC IMO makes more
sense in the case of a $ 500 - $ 700 crank assembly than a $ 100 - $
120 pen.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"Free Citizen"

It is not all CNC Pat, for the main parts it would be polymer and these
would be injection moulded parts. The cost for plastic injection moulded
parts are very low.

Wrong.

Todays plastic pen barrels and caps are not moulded (too much handling, and
requiring removal of more material than remains in the finished part), they are
made from tubular *extrusions*, probably lengths of 10'-12', finished by being
passed through banks of small manual bench-type turret lathes run by a small
cadre of minimum wage operaters and one set up/lead person, who all together
don't draw a salary approaching that of one CNC programmer. Internal plastic
parts are injection molded to completeness, requiring no secondary operations.
Metal trim part such as clips are formed by progressive stamping dies (probably
the costliest operation), most likely out-sourced... rings also from tubes,
produced by the same turret lathe operators when they're not doing barrels and
caps. Plastic barrel and cap polishing is performed by loading onto converers
and briefly 'dipping' into a solvent solution such as acetone and then air
dried by fans. Fountain pen production, especially these days, isn't anywhere
near the volume warranting automated production. Now if yoose wanna tawk BIC
Sticks, those are totally automated, produced entirely robotically, untouched
by human hands, made in the billions... but barrels and refill tubes also
EXTRUDED, not moulded... caps are moulded to completeness.

Btw, it's extremely rare for engineers to possess any practical experience
whatsoever... at best those theoretical types can come up with rough sketches,
which are then groomed by the real
workhorses of manufacturing, the toolroom personel. A manufacturing engineer
yoose definitely not.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

In article ,
"Free Citizen" wrote:

You are talking about pen enthusiast market. That is tiny. The likes of
Sheaffer cannot survive from this minuscule market. I am talking about
selling to the masses. Meaning, sell a Snorkel instead of a Prelude.

Sheaffer Preludes do not sell to "the masses". Maybe to a bigger pen
enthusiast group, but still very small. "The masses" walk right past any
pen over 5 dollars, and consider the four-dollar one a luxury. Normal
pens are fifty cents or less. That's "the masses", so that would be the
marketing challenge.

Again, if you think this would be such a great investment, no one is
stopping you.

David

"Curtis L. Russell" wrote in message
...


[snip]


And I think you misunderstand what goes into a high quality bike.
While the tube set is important, it is in many ways the easiest from
the design and assembly point-of-view. The typical CNC parts are the
crank set and rear derailleur, with the main issues being with the
crank set. CNC simply has a record of failure and this is when done by
experts like the Cooks. And it makes no sense for true mass
production.

Tolerances at the machined surfaces are easily the equal of pens, if
not that of true high speed bearing surfaces. OTOH, CNC IMO makes more
sense in the case of a $ 500 - $ 700 crank assembly than a $ 100 - $
120 pen.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

I suppose you are into manufacturing these bicycles. Although I have a
pretty good idea what CNC machine tools are capable of, I have to admit that
I know nothing about manufacturing these high precision crank sets. I rest
my case.
--
Best regards,
Free Citizen
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet

"Dave" wrote in message
...


[snip]


Sheaffer Preludes do not sell to "the masses". Maybe to a bigger pen
enthusiast group, but still very small. "The masses" walk right past any
pen over 5 dollars, and consider the four-dollar one a luxury. Normal
pens are fifty cents or less. That's "the masses", so that would be the
marketing challenge.


No, that is not the mass market I am referring to either. You are talking
about throw-aways or disposables. How much is a Varsity? It is quite clear
the fountain pen target market is at Fine Writing Instrument. Who would use
such instruments? Mostly lawyers, executives who require a 'decent' tool to
put their name on some important document. A fountain pen isn't used as a
daily workhorse. Those days are gone. But a market for fine writing still
exist.

Again, if you think this would be such a great investment, no one is
stopping you.

David

I would if I am in a position to do so. Alas, it is not. That design Patent
No. XXXXXXXXXXX belongs to Sheaffer. I am merely stating my opinion why it
isn't so difficult to re-introduce the Snorkel and that it is viable
business option.
--
Best regards,
Free Citizen
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet

"PENMART01" wrote in message
...


[snip]


Wrong.

Todays plastic pen barrels and caps are not moulded (too much handling,
and
requiring removal of more material than remains in the finished part),
they are
made from tubular *extrusions*, probably lengths of 10'-12', finished by
being
passed through banks of small manual bench-type turret lathes run by a
small
cadre of minimum wage operaters and one set up/lead person, who all
together
don't draw a salary approaching that of one CNC programmer. Internal
plastic
parts are injection molded to completeness, requiring no secondary
operations.
Metal trim part such as clips are formed by progressive stamping dies
(probably
the costliest operation), most likely out-sourced... rings also from
tubes,
produced by the same turret lathe operators when they're not doing barrels
and
caps. Plastic barrel and cap polishing is performed by loading onto
converers
and briefly 'dipping' into a solvent solution such as acetone and then air
dried by fans. Fountain pen production, especially these days, isn't
anywhere
near the volume warranting automated production. Now if yoose wanna tawk
BIC
Sticks, those are totally automated, produced entirely robotically,
untouched
by human hands, made in the billions... but barrels and refill tubes also
EXTRUDED, not moulded... caps are moulded to completeness.

Btw, it's extremely rare for engineers to possess any practical experience
whatsoever... at best those theoretical types can come up with rough
sketches,
which are then groomed by the real
workhorses of manufacturing, the toolroom personel. A manufacturing
engineer
yoose definitely not.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

What is this 'BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN' thing and 'Move
UNITED NATIONS To Paris' business? I don't get it. I may not be a
manufacturing engineer but I know enough about manufacturing processes. Any
length of barrel or cap that has a constant non-varying cross-section is
best made from extrusion. But those that are varying or has tapering cannot
be made this way. They have to be moulded or as you say turned from solid
rods. I doubt the latter case would be the manufacturing method of choice
for volume production like a Cross Radiance for example. Or even a Parker
Frontier or a Sheaffer Javelin. Look closely at their barrels as I am
looking at both now and you can see the spot at the end of the barrel where
the injection is made. I do not have to be a plastic moulding specialist to
know that this is the most cost effective way to manufacture these part. Any
complex shape can be moulded and to eject the finished product from the
mould isn't a very difficult process. Things like barrels and caps are spit
out by these machines at a rate you cannot imagine. Have you ever seen a
plastic injection moulding machine? Turning of pen parts from solid material
is the preserve of hand made pens. Such as the like of Nakaya and other
artisans of the west. These are one off items and no two are alike. They
cater to a different market. They are certainly not mainstream.
--
Best regards,
Free Citizen
http://pagesperso.laposte.net/fpnet