Catalogues criteria. What is worth collecting?

"Rein Bakhuizen van den Brink" wrote in message
...

dear Victor,

Let's face it there are important commercial reasons for this too.

The British stamp printers like Walsall, Questa, Waddington, Format etc.
could only get big in the 1970-ies thanks to the millions of stamps
printed by them for the myriads of St.Vincent, Grenadines islands,
Virgins etc. They were ordered by influential agents like Manfred Lehmann
[InterGovernmental] who started with Ghana, Togo, Nigeria, Ceylon,
Suriname..
Or take the African new emerging forces represented by Paris/Bruxelles
based
firms. The French stamp printers like the State Printers, Delrieu, Como,
Vaugirard could survive only that long.. Cook Islands weren't represented
by
them but were printed by Heraclio Fournier in Spain.
Where were the Hadramaut, Ajmani stamps etc. printed?? By some unknown
Eastern
Europe printer?? Who represented them? Had the Dunes been printed mainly
by British, French or Spanish printers they would have been recognised
by Stanley Gibbons.

snip for brevity

We prefer to fool ourselves, so let it be, let it be...

groetjes, Rein

Thanks, Rein!

Very interesting point of view indeed, that explains many things. Here some
further thoughts; I just try to extrapolate and to generalize what I have
learned from you and from other sources.

The catalogues accept as valid rather the stamps issued by established
printers (it's what you say). This is a central point, and it is a
consequence of several factors.

There are apparently four categories of producers of big (often huge!)
quantities of stamps thought for the philatelic market (estimated at least
at 1 - 2 billion US$ yearly):

1. The national producers, who represent and print in their countries or
abroad, for their protected national markets. Examples, among many others,
are USA or China, that need big quantities of stamps for their postal needs,
and that can print them inside their countries, or small countries like
Switzerland, that recently decided to abroad.
These stamps get listed in all major catalogues, and are considered official
issues. Among them there are many countries that produce stamps largely in
excess of the demands of their national postal markets, which means just for
the stamp collectors worldwide.

2. The agencies that compete for the open postal and philatelic (!) market
of other countries, markets that they often created or developed to a big
extend. The agencies that can afford the more renown (and more expensive)
printers are those who have a bigger financial power and more influence
(like on the deciding postal officials in poor countries, etc.). The bigger
orders allow to those printer houses, that print for the national producers
and for these agencies, to grow faster, to improve their printing technology
and to reduce their prices.
The stamps issued by these agencies get listed in all major catalogues too.
Often many of these stamps are considered undesirable, excessive or abusive.
Note: also very often the competing groups use these terms when they speak
about the products manufactured by their competitors.
http://www.pwmo.org/articles/undesirable-stamps1.htm

3. The less powerful (but powerful enough) competitors that compete for the
open market of other countries, markets that they expanded beyond any
imagination. They were those who printed for the Dunes, mostly in former
socialist countries, obviously for momentary limitations in output of the
big printers, for (un)ethical and for costs related reasons. These stamps
were and still are listed by Michel, an obviously more "flexible" catalogue
house.
http://www.pwmo.org/pwo-en-frame.htm , the second half

4. And the last but not least group is composed of those agents (who are
acting in underground) that issue the so called illegals. Only this group is
fought (but not too much, and without visible results) by the UPU and by
some others. Usually these stamps aren't listed by major catalogue houses,
but there are sufficient exceptions from this "rule".
http://www.pwmo.org/Illegals/frame-illegals-en.htm

Now let's turn to the immediate, practical consequences. It is relatively
easy to answer the question of a beginner (one who is often attracted by
modern topical stamps) "what should I collect?" by saying "what you like
mostly"! The answer to the next simple question (what should I avoid?) isn't
as obvious as it seems at the first glance. Just try to say "the stamps of
the group 1" and immediately you will find by yourself some valid objections
to this apparently reasonable proposal. And if you try to propose just some
of the stamps of the group 1, then you will have a problem in justifying
your allegedly good choice. Please note that I don't consider the answer
"collect just some stamps from the group 1, limited to some countries (or to
only your country), and only till the year xxxx" as being an option that can
be reasonably defended.

I agree with you, Rein, that too often "We prefer to fool ourselves", and
I'm not an exception, unfortunately. There are different reasons for this
attitude, that cannot be mentioned here without totally breaking the
limitations imposed by a simple postings. Maybe I'll try it sometimes later
or, even better, further contributions coming from RCSD participants will
consider the different aspects of this big problem of the modern philately,
and will let us know what they think about them.

Regards from the cold and cloudy Switzerland,

Victor Manta

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://www.pwmo.org/
Art on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/
Romania by Stamps: http://www.marci-postale.com/
Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/communism/
Spanish North Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

dear Victor,

the 4 groups you make have diffuse borders but can still be very useful.
As I said in an earlier posting:

- isn't it here that the line between "illegal" and "undesired"
gets awfully thin?
- "Illegal" is when the postal authorities have uttered problems
officially, and "undesired" is when stamp collectors have
complained among themselves for ages as in the case of
Liberia [since the early 50-ties?], Ghana since 1959, Bhutan,
San Marino etc.

You will find at my website an article I wrote for the Dutch philatelic
magazine 'Filatelie' [ http://www.xs4all.nl/~dziewon/fila/nl_figue.htm ]
in which I displayed my irritation of how on earth could Figueredo so
vigorously attack his competitor Sam Malamud in an official FIP magazine
without people stop doing him so??? I haven't read your site yet, but
likely you observed similar hypocrisies..

A very recent posting here concerned the 'stamps' of Micronesia. As I wrote
in my article I do collect the stamps of Pitcairn Islands, not thinking they
serve any postal purpose but because I once was charmed by the book on the
Mutiny and the film. I have no illusion that Micronesian stamps only serve
the Sam Malamud financial empire [or its successors] and that the agents
have enough influence - at least in the States - to have the stamps included
in Scott. And if US stamp printers are involved as well, then they definitely
will find their way ...

- A friend has sent me some scans of paintings by Whistler from
The Federated States of Micronesia, listed for sale by Coolstamps.
It is a set of 5 face values, 37c, 55c, 60c, and 80c + an imperf
sheet of 2$. No year of issue is mentioned on them, but they could
well be issued in 2003 for Whistler's 100th death anniversary.
I have googled for more information, but no links go further than 2000.
My Scott is the 1999 ed. Can anyone out there with a more recent
Scott than mine help with cat.numbers, and possibly more information
about the paintings?

I'm not the only one that like to get fooled! - sorry Mette . And having
stated so there is no ready made answer for any starting collector. Collect
any stamp you like that suits you, but when you like to collect 'postage
stamps' then you better stick to the the stamps of the 1st group bearing
in mind that occasionally also trustworthy stamp issuing entities like
Switzerland come up with embroidered rubbish or the Netherlands to come
up with 'silver' stamps that can't even get cancelled properly although
they were seriously meant to be used for registered letters between one
philatelist to the other Buying Dutch prestige booklets and paying
9.95 for 3.90 stamp values is just financing the philatelic department
of TPG, all catalogues will include the booklets or at least the stamps
contained in them, so by not buying them your collection will be
imcomplete. And who wants that?? And if you at one point plan to
participate in an competive exhibition by entering your modern Dutch
stamps, the jurors will point out to you that by not having Mette's
silver stamp cover [or anything like that], your collection is worth next
to nothing. So the circle is closed. And will be. There is no escaping..

groetjes, Rein


Now let's turn to the immediate, practical consequences. It is relatively
easy to answer the question of a beginner (one who is often attracted by
modern topical stamps) "what should I collect?" by saying "what you like
mostly"! The answer to the next simple question (what should I avoid?) isn't
as obvious as it seems at the first glance. Just try to say "the stamps of
the group 1" and immediately you will find by yourself some valid objections
to this apparently reasonable proposal. And if you try to propose just some
of the stamps of the group 1, then you will have a problem in justifying
your allegedly good choice. Please note that I don't consider the answer
"collect just some stamps from the group 1, limited to some countries (or to
only your country), and only till the year xxxx" as being an option that can
be reasonably defended.

I agree with you, Rein, that too often "We prefer to fool ourselves", and
I'm not an exception, unfortunately. There are different reasons for this
attitude, that cannot be mentioned here without totally breaking the
limitations imposed by a simple postings. Maybe I'll try it sometimes later
or, even better, further contributions coming from RCSD participants will
consider the different aspects of this big problem of the modern philately,
and will let us know what they think about them.

Regards from the cold and cloudy Switzerland,

Victor Manta

"Rein Bakhuizen van den Brink" skrev i en meddelelse
...

- snip -

A very recent posting here concerned the 'stamps' of Micronesia. As I
wrote
in my article I do collect the stamps of Pitcairn Islands, not thinking
they
serve any postal purpose but because I once was charmed by the book on the
Mutiny and the film. I have no illusion that Micronesian stamps only serve
the Sam Malamud financial empire [or its successors] and that the agents
have enough influence - at least in the States - to have the stamps
included
in Scott. And if US stamp printers are involved as well, then they
definitely
will find their way ...

- A friend has sent me some scans of paintings by Whistler from
The Federated States of Micronesia, listed for sale by Coolstamps.
It is a set of 5 face values, 37c, 55c, 60c, and 80c + an imperf
sheet of 2$. No year of issue is mentioned on them, but they could
well be issued in 2003 for Whistler's 100th death anniversary.
I have googled for more information, but no links go further than 2000.
My Scott is the 1999 ed. Can anyone out there with a more recent
Scott than mine help with cat.numbers, and possibly more information
about the paintings?

I'm not the only one that like to get fooled! - sorry Mette .

That's what I suspected, and the reason why I didn't bother to post the
scans, but referred to coolstamps, whom I know is an ardent seller of such
items. But since Micronesia is listed I wasn't sure, so I preferred to ask
some of the more experienced collectors here, before passing my answer on to
a young collector who asked specifically. :-) I run a youth club here, and
have managed to get some of the members hooked on arts. I'd rather not fool
them too much ;-) So thanks Rein, I do appreciate your opinion :-)

Regards
Mette





And having
stated so there is no ready made answer for any starting collector.
Collect
any stamp you like that suits you, but when you like to collect 'postage
stamps' then you better stick to the the stamps of the 1st group bearing
in mind that occasionally also trustworthy stamp issuing entities like
Switzerland come up with embroidered rubbish or the Netherlands to come
up with 'silver' stamps that can't even get cancelled properly although
they were seriously meant to be used for registered letters between one
philatelist to the other Buying Dutch prestige booklets and paying
9.95 for 3.90 stamp values is just financing the philatelic department
of TPG, all catalogues will include the booklets or at least the stamps
contained in them, so by not buying them your collection will be
imcomplete. And who wants that?? And if you at one point plan to
participate in an competive exhibition by entering your modern Dutch
stamps, the jurors will point out to you that by not having Mette's
silver stamp cover [or anything like that], your collection is worth next
to nothing. So the circle is closed. And will be. There is no escaping..

groetjes, Rein


Now let's turn to the immediate, practical consequences. It is relatively
easy to answer the question of a beginner (one who is often attracted by
modern topical stamps) "what should I collect?" by saying "what you like
mostly"! The answer to the next simple question (what should I avoid?)
isn't
as obvious as it seems at the first glance. Just try to say "the stamps of
the group 1" and immediately you will find by yourself some valid
objections
to this apparently reasonable proposal. And if you try to propose just
some
of the stamps of the group 1, then you will have a problem in justifying
your allegedly good choice. Please note that I don't consider the answer
"collect just some stamps from the group 1, limited to some countries (or
to
only your country), and only till the year xxxx" as being an option that
can
be reasonably defended.

I agree with you, Rein, that too often "We prefer to fool ourselves", and
I'm not an exception, unfortunately. There are different reasons for this
attitude, that cannot be mentioned here without totally breaking the
limitations imposed by a simple postings. Maybe I'll try it sometimes
later
or, even better, further contributions coming from RCSD participants will
consider the different aspects of this big problem of the modern
philately,
and will let us know what they think about them.

Regards from the cold and cloudy Switzerland,

Victor Manta

(Rein Bakhuizen van den Brink) wrote in message ...

A very recent posting here concerned the 'stamps' of Micronesia. As I wrote
in my article I do collect the stamps of Pitcairn Islands, not thinking they
serve any postal purpose but because I once was charmed by the book on the
Mutiny and the film. I have no illusion that Micronesian stamps only serve
the Sam Malamud financial empire [or its successors] and that the agents
have enough influence - at least in the States - to have the stamps included
in Scott. And if US stamp printers are involved as well, then they definitely
will find their way ...

- A friend has sent me some scans of paintings by Whistler from
The Federated States of Micronesia, listed for sale by Coolstamps.
It is a set of 5 face values, 37c, 55c, 60c, and 80c + an imperf
sheet of 2$. No year of issue is mentioned on them, but they could
well be issued in 2003 for Whistler's 100th death anniversary.
I have googled for more information, but no links go further than 2000.
My Scott is the 1999 ed. Can anyone out there with a more recent
Scott than mine help with cat.numbers, and possibly more information
about the paintings?

=============================================
Hello Rein:

I checked my 2004 Scott for issues 2000-2003.
It only covers Micronesia until Feb 2003 and
the Whistler set is NOT included.

Best Regards

Blair
=============================================

"TC Blair" skrev i en meddelelse
om...
(Rein Bakhuizen van den Brink) wrote in message
...

A very recent posting here concerned the 'stamps' of Micronesia. As I
wrote
in my article I do collect the stamps of Pitcairn Islands, not thinking
they
serve any postal purpose but because I once was charmed by the book on
the
Mutiny and the film. I have no illusion that Micronesian stamps only
serve
the Sam Malamud financial empire [or its successors] and that the agents
have enough influence - at least in the States - to have the stamps
included
in Scott. And if US stamp printers are involved as well, then they
definitely
will find their way ...

- A friend has sent me some scans of paintings by Whistler from
The Federated States of Micronesia, listed for sale by Coolstamps.
It is a set of 5 face values, 37c, 55c, 60c, and 80c + an imperf
sheet of 2$. No year of issue is mentioned on them, but they could
well be issued in 2003 for Whistler's 100th death anniversary.
I have googled for more information, but no links go further than 2000.
My Scott is the 1999 ed. Can anyone out there with a more recent
Scott than mine help with cat.numbers, and possibly more information
about the paintings?

=============================================
Hello Rein:

I checked my 2004 Scott for issues 2000-2003.
It only covers Micronesia until Feb 2003 and
the Whistler set is NOT included.

*********************
Blair, that might well be because they were issued rather late in the year
(October), after deadline for the catalogue to go to print.
--
Best regards
Ann Mette Heindorff (Mette)
reply to heindorffhus at heindorffhus dot.dk
http://www.heindorffhus.dk

dear Victor,

I knew I hadn't imagined that 'eastern europe printer' bit
myself. In the 75th anniversary [1919-1994] leaflet of the
Polish State Printers in Warsaw they state [translated from Polish]:

'While in Vienna for the UPU Congress 1965, the state publishing
house 'Ruch' had talks with several postal authorities about
possible printing orders for postage stamps. The first result
was an order made by the Beyruth firm 'Meccataf'. Between 1967
and 1974 the State Printers produced 510 stamps [all together
335.485.000 copies] plus 92 blocks [all together 4.106.000 copies].
These orders were for the following countries:
Ajman-Manama, Ras Alkhaima, jemen, Oman, Fujeira, Sharjah,
Marocco, Equador, Kuwait, Nepal and Lybia.'

groetjes, Rein



On 14 Nov 2004 12:09:24 , "Victor Manta" wrote:
dear Victor,

Let's face it there are important commercial reasons for this too.

The British stamp printers like Walsall, Questa, Waddington, Format etc.
could only get big in the 1970-ies thanks to the millions of stamps
printed by them for the myriads of St.Vincent, Grenadines islands,
Virgins etc. They were ordered by influential agents like Manfred Lehmann
[InterGovernmental] who started with Ghana, Togo, Nigeria, Ceylon,
Suriname..
Or take the African new emerging forces represented by Paris/Bruxelles
based
firms. The French stamp printers like the State Printers, Delrieu, Como,
Vaugirard could survive only that long.. Cook Islands weren't represented
by
them but were printed by Heraclio Fournier in Spain.
Where were the Hadramaut, Ajmani stamps etc. printed?? By some unknown
Eastern
Europe printer?? Who represented them? Had the Dunes been printed mainly
by British, French or Spanish printers they would have been recognised
by Stanley Gibbons.

"Rein Bakhuizen van den Brink" wrote in message
...
dear Victor,

I knew I hadn't imagined that 'eastern europe printer' bit
myself. In the 75th anniversary [1919-1994] leaflet of the
Polish State Printers in Warsaw they state [translated from Polish]:

'While in Vienna for the UPU Congress 1965, the state publishing
house 'Ruch' had talks with several postal authorities about
possible printing orders for postage stamps. The first result
was an order made by the Beyruth firm 'Meccataf'. Between 1967
and 1974 the State Printers produced 510 stamps [all together
335.485.000 copies] plus 92 blocks [all together 4.106.000 copies].
These orders were for the following countries:
Ajman-Manama, Ras Alkhaima, jemen, Oman, Fujeira, Sharjah,
Marocco, Equador, Kuwait, Nepal and Lybia.'

groetjes, Rein

Thanks for this supplementary data, Rein!

I suppose that some Western businessmen have facilitated in the 60s and 70s
a so-called "transfer of technology" to certain European communist
countries. These countries could then produce at lower costs a lot of
stamps, this not only for the Dunes, etc., but also for themselves, of more
exactly for the exportation of their stamps in the Western countries. This
permitted the quick return of investment and nice profits to many
participants in this deal but inflated even more the stamp collecting as
such.

But after some decades the equipment wore out and was replaced by some
obsolete things, and this could be the reason why the typographic quality of
the stamps produced today (for example by Romanian PA) is lower now than it
was 30 years ago.

I wonder if this explanation is correct.

Victor Manta

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romania by Stamps: http://www.marci-postale.com/
Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/communism/
Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://www.pwmo.org/
Art on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/
Spanish North Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

dear Victor,

this is not true, at least not in the case of the printer in Warsaw.
They had access to modern printing machines all the time. WIFAG and
Goebel presses were in Poland, Czechoslovakia, USSR from the early
fifties, or even earlier [the Polish Goebel was almost as old as the
Swiss PTT one in Bern]. Czech printers installed a WInkler Fallert
in Peking in 1959.... Also the offset-litho Roland MAN presses were
available.. The Polish PWPW bought new presses in the 1970-ies from
GOEBEL, Darmstadt. When they had the currency they could buy, no obstacles.

groetjes, Rein

On 22 Nov 2004 20:40:40 , "Victor Manta" wrote:
"Rein Bakhuizen van den Brink" wrote in message

Thanks for this supplementary data, Rein!

I suppose that some Western businessmen have facilitated in the 60s and 70s
a so-called "transfer of technology" to certain European communist
countries. These countries could then produce at lower costs a lot of
stamps, this not only for the Dunes, etc., but also for themselves, of more
exactly for the exportation of their stamps in the Western countries. This
permitted the quick return of investment and nice profits to many
participants in this deal but inflated even more the stamp collecting as
such.

But after some decades the equipment wore out and was replaced by some
obsolete things, and this could be the reason why the typographic quality of
the stamps produced today (for example by Romanian PA) is lower now than it
was 30 years ago.

I wonder if this explanation is correct.

Victor Manta

"Victor Manta" wrote in message
...
"Rein Bakhuizen van den Brink" wrote in message
...
dear Victor,

I knew I hadn't imagined that 'eastern europe printer' bit
myself. In the 75th anniversary [1919-1994] leaflet of the
Polish State Printers in Warsaw they state [translated from
Polish]:

'While in Vienna for the UPU Congress 1965, the state publishing
house 'Ruch' had talks with several postal authorities about
possible printing orders for postage stamps. The first result
was an order made by the Beyruth firm 'Meccataf'. Between 1967
and 1974 the State Printers produced 510 stamps [all together
335.485.000 copies] plus 92 blocks [all together 4.106.000
copies].
These orders were for the following countries:
Ajman-Manama, Ras Alkhaima, jemen, Oman, Fujeira, Sharjah,
Marocco, Equador, Kuwait, Nepal and Lybia.'

groetjes, Rein

Thanks for this supplementary data, Rein!

I suppose that some Western businessmen have facilitated in the 60s
and 70s
a so-called "transfer of technology" to certain European communist
countries.

I don't understand the innuendo here. There were fully open trade
channels used between Europe and Eastern Europe at the time of which
you speak. In addition, there were highly industrialised countries on
the other side of the Iron Curtain. I am sure they knew how to print.

These countries could then produce at lower costs a lot of
stamps, this not only for the Dunes, etc., but also for themselves,
of more
exactly for the exportation of their stamps in the Western
countries. This
permitted the quick return of investment and nice profits to many
participants in this deal but inflated even more the stamp
collecting as
such.

Yes. That is unfortunately oinly too true.

But after some decades the equipment wore out and was replaced by
some
obsolete things, and this could be the reason why the typographic
quality of
the stamps produced today (for example by Romanian PA) is lower now
than it
was 30 years ago.


I wonder if this explanation is correct.

I doubt it most sincerely.

Franz