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#11
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Only an idiot would think that this is a genuine silver dollar.
Harold "Harvey Bastacky" wrote in message . .. This guy has been putting up 1879CC Silver plated proof dollars in GSA look-alike holders and ripping off unsuspecting (and uninformed) collectors for quite some time. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=3955227 871 Can't anybody stop him????????????????? |
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#12
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All of reading this can quickly discern that this is not a real Carson
City Morgan dollar. Yet it gets bids from the optimistically ignorant. What to do? Emailing the seller or reporting him to eBay will get nowhere, since the auction description contains enough detail to alert the experienced collector that this coin is a reproduction. For quite a few months now eBay has given lip service to the ANA and required coin sellers to state that their coins are represented in accordance with ANA grading standards. Of course, this is not a "coin" strictly speaking, so eBay can collect their final value fees from the seller once the winning bidiot has paid. There have been a couple of fruitless attempts to get eBay to either create a new category for reproductions/copies/fakes or force sellers to onclude "copy", "reproduction" or some similar word in the item specifics. Still this one is listed as "Certified" "Carson City" "Siver" "Proof", for which precious few Morgans would qualify. Yes, eBay could be doing more to alert mentally retarded bidders that this is not a real 1879-CC GSA Morgan dollar. I agree with Steve that eBay and cable TV auctions of such reproductions will continue until the sources that create them cease to exist. I think that these silver plated fakes were made with despicable motives, and do not condone those selling them to the public. In the meantime, is there any way we can take less than draconian measures to stop such preying on the ignorant? Much of the U.S. gross domestic product is generated by preying on the ignorant. Perhaps this auction simply epitomizes that the U.S. gross domestic product is gross indeed, and cannot be compared to the economy of Tibetan monks or more enlightened citizens of this planet. If the federal government were to outlaw misrepresentation so that every advertisement was clear to the most stupid citizen, we would live in a society described by Kurt Vonnegut in his 1960s short story "Harrison Bergeron". Under that scenario, all Americans were finally equal when each person was fitted with a heavy suit of lead weights proportional to their intelligence and physical strength so that no one could do anything other than sit in their chair and watch TV. Shystev99 wrote: I agree. This auction is no different from the TV ads. It is clearly stated that this is a reproduction and "replication". The one thing that I hate to see is that "100 mil .999 pure silver proof" wording. This kind of language is obviously designed to imply to non-numismatists that, reproduction or not, this is a .999 silver coin. A simple "Silver plated" would be much more truthful and informative, but certainly would not attract as many potential buyers. Unlike unavoidable TV commercials, anyone landing on this auction site would most likely have been searching for coin-related auctions. Once there, even if they are uninformed, they are responsible for any bid decisions they make. Bruce I agree with you that the wording of the .999 Silver coin MAY sound deceptive but my next question would be, Is the coin solid silver or is it plated. As far as I know there is no law against selling pure silver coins even if they are advertised as copies or replicas. The Franklin Mint used to mint .999 silver coins all the time when they were in business back in the 70's. Now these coins weren't all replicas of actual coins but still I don't think anybody selling silver in bar form or coin form is illegal.....Is it? (I'm not talking about deliberate counterfit coins designed to circulate and fool consumers, I mean coins that are advertised as copies or replicas) Now if the coins are infact plated then....Absolutley it's unethical and wrong. But if everybody feels so passionatley about this then there are options, Some of you suggest stopping the seller. Well that won't solve the overall problem. The better solution would be for us to get together as a group (Which we are) write up some proposal that would make it illegal for any mint to mint their coins in the form of any US minted coin throughout the history of the mint. Meaning reproductions, copies, replicas or any other slick wording of any pre existing coin would be banned altogtether. We then submit that proposal to a local congressman, Or numerous congressmen and see where they can take it. To give it somekind of backbone we can also create a petition that collectors, reputable dealers, US Mint officials, or anyone else interested could sign. We could find reputable dealers (Many which are in this group) to maybe help get the word out about this law or bill on their websites, Coin shows, storefronts etc... Now some of you may laugh at this idea, Hell I'm laughing at it a little bit myself. But when you think about it with the coin market the way it is and with it as popular as it is some senators and congressmen might actually bite at it. Now would it happen overnight? No It will be a long drawn out process that would be very frustrating and tedious at times. But again if you guys are truly as passionate as you sound I say it's something we should atleast think about. And any collectors here outside of the US can hopefully seek the same kind of option in their countries. Point being, If we make these reproductions, copies and replicas of EXISTING OR HISTORICAL U.S. AND GLOBAL LEGAL TENDER then ebay or any other auction site would have to enforce and restrict not having it sold on their sites. If you truly want to stop it you have to goto the source, Not the sellers. Steve |
#13
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"Shystev99" wrote
I don't even know that I'd call it defending him as pointing out the obvious fact that people have to read the description and understand what it is they are bidding on before they bid. Or they have no business bidding. It's got nothing to do with defending him. I don't know him so I can't defend or attack him. But at some point people have to use simple common sense, An analogy could be the election system. Year in and Year out we see problem after problem with ballots, Now vast majority of these problems aren't caused or created by the system but caused by the people who are to stupid or lazy to understand what they are doing enough to take the time to do it right. All the directions are there, If you need help you just ask the election workers and they will help you. But people don't do that, They don't read the directions, They don't know how to vote properly and they don't bother asking for help, then when their ballots gets tossed out or doesn't count it's everybody else's fault BUT theirs. We wouldn't have problems with dimpled chads, hanging chads, pregnant chads or any other kind of friggin chad if people just took the additional time to check and doublecheck their ballot and their votes before they turn it in. What's it take an additional 30 seconds maybe a minute tops? You just pull your card out, run your finger over the back clearing all the chads, pop it back in the slot and doublecheck your votes 1 by 1. But it's just a whole lot easier not to do it and blame society and especially Bush. If people are yo stupid or lazy to read the directions and understand exactly what they are doing is that the whole nations problem or theirs? The law states otherwise. In the case against the sellers of the Hutt River Province "coins" which were advertised as legal tender, but were not, the judge ruled: Express misrepresentations are not required. It is the net impression which the solicitation is likely to make upon individuals to whom it is directed which is important. If it is artfully designed to mislead those responding to it, the false representation statute is applicable. The statute is intended to protect the gullible, naive, and less critical reader, as well as the more sophisticated, wary reader. G.J. Howard Co. v. Cassidy, 162 F. Supp. 568 (E.D.N.Y. 1958); See also, Virginia State Board of Pharmacy v. Virginia Citizens Consumer Council, 425 U.S. 748 (1976). Where an advertisement is ambiguous or capable of more than one meaning, if one of those meanings is false, the advertisement will be held to be misleading. Finderhood, Inc., P.S. Docket No.34/102, slip op. at 8-9 (P.S.D. March 20, 1992), and cases cited; The National Gold Mint, P.S. Docket No. 22/165, slip op. at 22 (P.S.D. May 1, 1987). |
#14
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The clock collecting community has also been plagued by fakes on ebay.
http://clockhistory.com/westclox/other/fakes/index.html |
#15
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Shystev99 wrote:
I agree. This auction is no different from the TV ads. It is clearly stated that this is a reproduction and "replication". The one thing that I hate to see is that "100 mil .999 pure silver proof" wording. This kind of language is obviously designed to imply to non-numismatists that, reproduction or not, this is a .999 silver coin. A simple "Silver plated" would be much more truthful and informative, but certainly would not attract as many potential buyers. Unlike unavoidable TV commercials, anyone landing on this auction site would most likely have been searching for coin-related auctions. Once there, even if they are uninformed, they are responsible for any bid decisions they make. Bruce I agree with you that the wording of the .999 Silver coin MAY sound deceptive but my next question would be, Is the coin solid silver or is it plated. As far as I know there is no law against selling pure silver coins even if they are advertised as copies or replicas. The Franklin Mint used to mint .999 silver coins all the time when they were in business back in the 70's. Now these coins weren't all replicas of actual coins but still I don't think anybody selling silver in bar form or coin form is illegal.....Is it? (I'm not talking about deliberate counterfit coins designed to circulate and fool consumers, I mean coins that are advertised as copies or replicas) Now if the coins are infact plated then....Absolutley it's unethical and wrong. The wording "100 mil" indicates the thickness of the silver. "100 mil .999 pure silver clad base" indicates that the item is made of an unspecified base metal that is plated with silver. This is immediately clear to metallurgists and most collectors, but not to the mass market the ads are intended to reach. Does your Aunt Nellie know what 100 mil equates to? Carefully crafted to be legally correct, but exploitative in its intent. But if everybody feels so passionatley about this then there are options, Some of you suggest stopping the seller. Well that won't solve the overall problem. The better solution would be for us to get together as a group (Which we are) write up some proposal that would make it illegal for any mint to mint their coins in the form of any US minted coin throughout the history of the mint. Meaning reproductions, copies, replicas or any other slick wording of any pre existing coin would be banned altogtether. We then submit that proposal to a local congressman, Or numerous congressmen and see where they can take it. To give it somekind of backbone we can also create a petition that collectors, reputable dealers, US Mint officials, or anyone else interested could sign. We could find reputable dealers (Many which are in this group) to maybe help get the word out about this law or bill on their websites, Coin shows, storefronts etc... Now some of you may laugh at this idea, Hell I'm laughing at it a little bit myself. But when you think about it with the coin market the way it is and with it as popular as it is some senators and congressmen might actually bite at it. Now would it happen overnight? No It will be a long drawn out process that would be very frustrating and tedious at times. But again if you guys are truly as passionate as you sound I say it's something we should atleast think about. And any collectors here outside of the US can hopefully seek the same kind of option in their countries. Point being, If we make these reproductions, copies and replicas of EXISTING OR HISTORICAL U.S. AND GLOBAL LEGAL TENDER then ebay or any other auction site would have to enforce and restrict not having it sold on their sites. I think most collectors are upset with these "coin" promotions because they can sully the image of coin collecting in general. Newspaper articles and word of mouth complaints will give the impression that coin collecting has been infiltrated by a bunch of scam artists. I believe one way to discourage this kind of thing is to somehow educate the public as to any deceptive language used in each promotion. I don't know of a practical way to reach the mass market with this information. If only it could be made widely known (legally) that this particular item is actually a privately-produced replica of a US silver dollar coin that has been silver plated to somewhat resemble the appearance of the original dollar which itself was made of 90% pure silver. Except for its appearance, this replica is totally unrelated to any coin produced by the US Govt. That it is called "proof" is not necessarily comparable to how the US Mint produced proof coins. From there, the public is at least able to make a better informed decision on whether to buy one of these things. Bruce |
#16
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"Bruce Remick" wrote
The wording "100 mil" indicates the thickness of the silver. "100 mil .999 pure silver clad base" indicates that the item is made of an unspecified base metal that is plated with silver. This is immediately clear to metallurgists and most collectors, but not to the mass market the ads are intended to reach. Except a mil is 1/1000 of an inch, and they use the term to mean a millionth of an inch. And the term "clad" refers to the OUTER layer, like an iron-clad warship. "Pure silver clad base" is incorrect. The clad is silver, not the base! |
#17
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In a recent message "Frank Provasek" wrote:
"Bruce Remick" wrote The wording "100 mil" indicates the thickness of the silver. "100 mil .999 pure silver clad base" indicates that the item is made of an unspecified base metal that is plated with silver. This is immediately clear to metallurgists and most collectors, but not to the mass market the ads are intended to reach. Except a mil is 1/1000 of an inch, and they use the term to mean a millionth of an inch. And the term "clad" refers to the OUTER layer, like an iron-clad warship. "Pure silver clad base" is incorrect. The clad is silver, not the base! Technically the term pure silver clad base implies a base that is clad with silver that is pure. Not that I condone this type of artefact. I was nearly fooled by a coin that appeared to be mediaeval, but was actually a modern copy made by the Bigbury Mint. -- Tony Clayton or Coins of the UK : http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/coins.html Metals used in Coins : http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/metal.html Sent using RISCOS on an Acorn Strong Arm RiscPC .... "Virtual" means never knowing where your next byte is coming from. |
#18
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Harvey Bastacky wrote:
This guy has been putting up 1879CC Silver plated proof dollars in GSA look-alike holders and ripping off unsuspecting (and uninformed) collectors for quite some time. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=3955227 871 Can't anybody stop him????????????????? What is it "exactly", you think he's doing wrong, or dishonest. He spells it out plain and clear what you are going to bid on. If this is what a person wants, let them buy them. Otherwise take Ian'a advice, and "YOU" do something before he causes the collapse of the World Economy :-) -- Your Friend in Gold Mining............... John Artifical Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity |
#19
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On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 17:50:50 -0500, John Mason
wrote: Harvey Bastacky wrote: This guy has been putting up 1879CC Silver plated proof dollars in GSA look-alike holders and ripping off unsuspecting (and uninformed) collectors for quite some time. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=3955227 871 Can't anybody stop him????????????????? What is it "exactly", you think he's doing wrong, or dishonest. He spells it out plain and clear what you are going to bid on. If this is what a person wants, let them buy them. Otherwise take Ian'a advice, and "YOU" do something before he causes the collapse of the World Economy :-) Well.....for one thing he titles the auction: "1879-CC GSA MORGAN SILVER PROOF DOLLAR !!!" There is no such thing. |
#20
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"Frank Provasek" wrote in message
nk.net... "Bruce Remick" wrote The wording "100 mil" indicates the thickness of the silver. "100 mil .999 pure silver clad base" indicates that the item is made of an unspecified base metal that is plated with silver. This is immediately clear to metallurgists and most collectors, but not to the mass market the ads are intended to reach. Except a mil is 1/1000 of an inch, and they use the term to mean a millionth of an inch. And the term "clad" refers to the OUTER layer, like an iron-clad warship. "Pure silver clad base" is incorrect. The clad is silver, not the base! This awkward word sequence can be interpreted several ways, especially with no hyphens, and I presume that was the intent of the people who crafted the text for the sales promotion. But at least the use of the word "clad" indicates there are two metals here. Anyone who interprets these words to mean he will receive a .999 pure silver coin plated with an unspecified metal deserves to learn a lesson the hard way. Bruce |
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