Questions about pens

I've used a computer since the early 1980s and I can say that I have
not written with a pen for years, except signatures, doodling, and the
rare form. Lately though, I developed an interest in writing, but I've
become a little sick of computers; don't ask me to explain it, let's
just say they make me queasy, and too easily distracted.

Hence, back the the zen of pen and paper; the tranquility is idyllic.
An hour or two of pen and paper pass like a peaceful dream... same time
on a computer leave me tense and excitable.

I'm currently using Bic Cristal classic pens, as I got a 50-pack of
them a while ago. I fit them with rubber grips and they become much
more comfortable. I'm curious though about other pens. So here are my
qeustions...

1. What's the difference between ballpoint and rollerball?
2. I like the fact that Bic Cristal pens write a durable and very
reliable ink. Once written it's instantly dry on the page, and I won't
smudge it off. How is it for fountain pens? I have the impression that
their ink on the page isn't as dry, and isn't as resistant to
degeneration or mishaps.
3. How do cartridges compare to ink bottles? I have the impression that
cartridges are somewhat of a rip-off.
4. How long would an ink bottle last? Let's say I hope to write 10
pages a day.
5. Is a fountain pen clearly better than a Bic Cristal? I know you'll
probably find this question absurd, but seriously, I have used fountain
pens in the past and though they may be comfortable my impression of
them was that they were a little temperamental, often giving less than
perfectly consistent lines. You see, with a Bic Cristal, lines are
perfectly consistent, and it's no-nonsense. My experience with fountain
pens wasn't so as far as consistency was concerned, and I'm not talking
about them running out of ink or needing maintenance, I mean at their
best. I also remember them as being a little scratchy at times unless
used tenderly, or perhaps I just have a rather vigorous handwriting.
6. Are modern fountain pens ever messy? It's been a while since I used
any of them, though I vaguely remember them leaking on the dovet.

You see, i'm not after an object of affection, or a article of
craftmanship; I just need something that works, and works well. I also
have no plans to purchase an expensive pen, as I lose pens too easily
and I'd am more comforted by knowing that if I lose one then there'll
be half a dozen at home that I'd already bought, that, and the fact
that I want to throw a few of them around the place so I don't have to
look for it when I need to note something.

Should I just stay with Bic Cristal?

Should I just stay with Bic Cristal?

With all your requirements, the answer is yes.

wrote:
I've used a computer since the early 1980s and I can say that I have
not written with a pen for years, except signatures, doodling, and
the
rare form. Lately though, I developed an interest in writing, but
I've
become a little sick of computers; don't ask me to explain it, let's
just say they make me queasy, and too easily distracted.

Hence, back the the zen of pen and paper; the tranquility is idyllic.
An hour or two of pen and paper pass like a peaceful dream... same
time
on a computer leave me tense and excitable.

I'm currently using Bic Cristal classic pens, as I got a 50-pack of
them a while ago. I fit them with rubber grips and they become much
more comfortable. I'm curious though about other pens. So here are my
qeustions...

1. What's the difference between ballpoint and rollerball?
2. I like the fact that Bic Cristal pens write a durable and very
reliable ink. Once written it's instantly dry on the page, and I
won't
smudge it off. How is it for fountain pens? I have the impression
that
their ink on the page isn't as dry, and isn't as resistant to
degeneration or mishaps.
3. How do cartridges compare to ink bottles? I have the impression
that
cartridges are somewhat of a rip-off.
4. How long would an ink bottle last? Let's say I hope to write 10
pages a day.
5. Is a fountain pen clearly better than a Bic Cristal? I know you'll
probably find this question absurd, but seriously, I have used
fountain
pens in the past and though they may be comfortable my impression of
them was that they were a little temperamental, often giving less
than
perfectly consistent lines. You see, with a Bic Cristal, lines are
perfectly consistent, and it's no-nonsense. My experience with
fountain
pens wasn't so as far as consistency was concerned, and I'm not
talking
about them running out of ink or needing maintenance, I mean at their
best. I also remember them as being a little scratchy at times unless
used tenderly, or perhaps I just have a rather vigorous handwriting.
6. Are modern fountain pens ever messy? It's been a while since I
used
any of them, though I vaguely remember them leaking on the dovet.

You see, i'm not after an object of affection, or a article of
craftmanship; I just need something that works, and works well. I
also
have no plans to purchase an expensive pen, as I lose pens too easily
and I'd am more comforted by knowing that if I lose one then there'll
be half a dozen at home that I'd already bought, that, and the fact
that I want to throw a few of them around the place so I don't have
to
look for it when I need to note something.

Should I just stay with Bic Cristal?


Actually, writing the above helped me decide. I decided need with a
commodity ballpoint; inexpensive that I can buy it in at least a dozen,
writes instantly, won't smudge, consistent line, won't wash off. So,
forget the questions above, what's the best commodity ballpoint? Bic,
Papermate, Staedtler? I'll be using my own rubber grips, so I care more
about the quality of the ballpoint itself and the ink, ie. the writing
interface, than the handling.

Thanks

(Snip)
Actually, writing the above helped me decide. I decided need with a
commodity ballpoint; inexpensive that I can buy it in at least a dozen,
writes instantly, won't smudge, consistent line, won't wash off. So,
forget the questions above, what's the best commodity ballpoint? Bic,
Papermate, Staedtler? I'll be using my own rubber grips, so I care more
about the quality of the ballpoint itself and the ink, ie. the writing
interface, than the handling.

Thanks
Congratulations, you've evolved into the ultimate consumer. No concerns
about quality or selection, just take the cheapest, most utilitarian product
that you can find and use it. Then throw it away. Surely there must be forum
for alt.cheapskate.disposable-pens and I suggest that you go find it and
post there.
Don

On 19 May 2005 22:41:24 -0700, wrote:

1. What's the difference between ballpoint and rollerball?

A ballpoint is what you're used to. A rollerball is the same mechanism,
but with "fountain pen ink" in it. It's a bit smoother, some are also
much narrower.

In general, the rollerball is a nicer thing to write with. See below
though

2. I like the fact that Bic Cristal pens write a durable and very
reliable ink.

Yes, they are an excellent pen. They make marks on paper, they make
durable marks, and they're cheap. However they're not so pleasant to
write with, the writing produced doesn't allow you to display any real
style, and the pens themselves are ugly.

Personally I spent years using Parker rollerballs until I re-adopted a
fountain pen, and they're everything you could want from a Bic, only a
bit nicer.

Once written it's instantly dry on the page, and I won't
smudge it off. How is it for fountain pens?

Fountainpens (and rollerballs) have much wetter ink. It's fussier about
what it writes on, and it takes longer to dry. This is most noticeable
with a broader or wetter fountain pen.

Fountain pens are the pens of a more relaxed and refined age. It is
simply not a problem that one must allow their ink time to dry -- if
there is any hurry, have one of your clerks or a footman deal with the
matter instead.

3. How do cartridges compare to ink bottles?

IMHO, cartridges will be out-lived by the fountain pen. Cartridges are a
convenience feature, for fountain pens. But neither is as convenient as
a simple Bic. So if you want convenience, go with the ball.

Much of the pleasure of fountain pens is in choosing different inks.
Cartridges have negligible choice here, which is why I don't use them.

There's also the issue that piston-filler fountain pens can contain "a
week's ink" when that might otherwise be several cartridge changes.

I have the impression that
cartridges are somewhat of a rip-off.

Ink is cheap. Even expensive ink is cheap. Cartridges are more, but not
so you really notice. A refillable pen is still cheaper to write with
than a disposable or a complicated ballpoint refill, no matter how you
fill it.

4. How long would an ink bottle last? Let's say I hope to write 10
pages a day.

I just don't know. It's _that_ long. I replace my three "main colours"
about once a year and I have a few bottles of other colours around too
that are less used.

5. Is a fountain pen clearly better than a Bic Cristal?

One can only answer this if we agree a meaning of "better". The Bic
works and does its job - there are many truly nasty disposable
ballpoints that simply don't. The Bic also does one job particularly
well and it even has some "design icon" status. It's also chewable.

But no-one has ever appreciated a Bic Crystal that I'm using.


my impression of [fountain pens] was that they were a little temperamental,

Then you should experience a better pen. In my youth, fountain pens
were common (although diminishing) and schoolboys used cheap and
uninspiring pens. They were mundane, if not unpleasant to write with.

These days I have a wide selection of extremely good pens to use, often
top-end mass-market pens of the '40s or '50s. My Parker 51s are
particular favourites to write with because they are such beautifully
fine writing instruments. And today, I can afford several.

If you have the chance (eBay), buy a Pelikan Go! of the '80s. A cheaply
made pen that looks uninspiring but works remarkably well. A lovely
thing to write with, a big capacity for ink

often giving less than perfectly consistent lines.

This is part of the art of penmanship. Most writing styles require a
_varying_ line, and the fountain pen's nib is chosen to give this. An
"everyday" nib might lessen this, but it should still be somewhat
sensitive to how you use it.

Bic handwriting is basically ugly.

6. Are modern fountain pens ever messy?

They needn't be. Choose the right one and don't boil or shake it. I've
had more Bic Crystals decide to leak than I have fountain pens.

You see, i'm not after an object of affection, or a article of
craftmanship;

Well that's a shame.


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

writes:

1. What's the difference between ballpoint and rollerball?

They are almost the same, but rollerball has liquid ink. It tries to
combine best features of fountain pen and ballpoint pen.

2. I like the fact that Bic Cristal pens write a durable and very
reliable ink. Once written it's instantly dry on the page, and I won't
smudge it off. How is it for fountain pens? I have the impression that
their ink on the page isn't as dry, and isn't as resistant to
degeneration or mishaps.

Yes, fountain pen inks dry a little bit slower. It depends on ink, how
fast it dries.

3. How do cartridges compare to ink bottles? I have the impression
that cartridges are somewhat of a rip-off.

Same ink in cartridge and bottle is... well... same ink. Cartridges can
not hold as much ink as fountain pen that is filled from bottle. Ink in
cartridges costs more per liter. Most fountain pens that use cartridge
can be switched for filling from bottle: You just need to buy a
converter.

4. How long would an ink bottle last? Let's say I hope to write 10
pages a day.

I really don't know. When I had just one fountain pen and used
cartridges in it, one cartridge lasted about one month. I think you will
need 1-5 bottles (30-50 ml) of ink per year. Or just buy Pelikan 4001
Brilliant Black in 1000 ml bottles.

5. Is a fountain pen clearly better than a Bic Cristal? I know you'll
probably find this question absurd, but seriously, I have used fountain
pens in the past and though they may be comfortable my impression of
them was that they were a little temperamental, often giving less than
perfectly consistent lines.

That is true, but depends on ink (and pen). Some inks show color
variations, some don't. But many fountain pen users really like it, when
tone of color changes depending on speed and pressure of nib. They think
it puts more personality to their writing.

I also remember them as being a little scratchy at times unless used
tenderly, or perhaps I just have a rather vigorous handwriting.

Only those fountain pens of bad quality are scratchy. Period.

6. Are modern fountain pens ever messy? It's been a while since I used
any of them, though I vaguely remember them leaking on the dovet.

Modern fountain pens generally do not leak, except sometimes during
flying. But even then you can avoid leaking, if you know what to do.
At least these pens should never leak during flight:

- Rotring Initial
- Waterman Edson
- Parker 51

I have heard that Montblanc Meisterstuck 146 and 149 has some weird
habit of sweating ink inside its cap:

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/writing...blanc_149.html
http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/rjm...s/montblan.htm

I also have no plans to purchase an expensive pen, as I lose pens too
easily and I'd am more comforted by knowing that if I lose one then
there'll be half a dozen at home that I'd already bought, that, and
the fact that I want to throw a few of them around the place so I
don't have to look for it when I need to note something.

You can buy a bunch of some cheap but good fountain pens and spread them
around your house to all strategic places where they are needed. My
current pens of choice for that purpose are these:

- Parker Reflex
http://www.penhero.com/PenGallery/Pa...rkerReflex.htm
- Parker Jotter (It seems fountain pen of this series is not available
in the USA)

Also these may be good for that purpose:

- Pelikan Steno
http://www.pelikan.com/en/docs/pro_v...&fid=2&sid=126
- Pelikan Future
http://www.pelikan.com/en/docs/pro_v...&fid=2&sid=126
http://www.pelikan.com/en/docs/pro_v...&fid=2&sid=126
http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/rjm...ns/pelikan.htm
- Pelikan Pelikano
http://www.pelikan.com/en/docs/pro_v...&fid=2&sid=126
http://fountainpenforum.com/e107/content.php?review.21
- Rotring Skynn
- Rotring Core
http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/rjm...ns/rotring.htm
- Lamy Safari
http://fountainpenforum.com/e107/content.php?review.6
- Lamy Vista
http://www.stylophilesonline.com/arc...n03/01demo.htm
- Lamy AL-Star
http://www.penhero.com/PenGallery/Lamy/LamyAlStar.htm

It may be good idea to spread cheaper pens around your house and keep
more expensive pens on your coat's pocket, rucksack, briefcase etc. and
the most expensive pens on writing desk.

If some fountain pen is available in both metal and plastic, then that
metal version may be good for your writing desk and plastic version is
good for spreading around the house. For example Parker Jotter and
Pelikan Future are available as both metal and plastic version. Lamy
AL-Star is basicly Lamy Safari, but made of aluminum. Lamy Vista is just
like Lamy Safari, but is made of clear transparent plastic.

Here are some lists of cheap but good fountain pens:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~danhle/home.html#beginners
http://fountainpenforum.com/e107/content.php?article.14
http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/rjm...ns/whatpen.htm
http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/rjm...ions/cheap.htm

I really don't know, why that last site claims that Parker Reflex would
be scratchy.

See also this:

http://www.pendemonium.com/new.htm

"April 5, 2005 - We frequently receive inquiries from people who
have never used a fountain pen and are ready to try one, don't
want to invest a whole lot of money, and aren't quite sure which
one to select. Perfectly understandable since there is a wide
range of choices available today.

Here are our top choices for those of you who are ready to take
the plunge! These are all tried and true and just downright
reliable fountain pens! Less than $50.00, too! Click on the
links below to learn more.

Waterman Phileas Fountain Pens

Parker Frontier Flighter Fountain Pens

Pelikan Future or Pelikano Fountain Pens

Sheaffer Prelude Fountain Pens"


--
Juhapekka "naula" Tolvanen * http colon slash slash iki dot fi slash juhtolv
"Lennän taas. Olen juppihippipunkkari ja vaihdan paikkaa. Lennän taas. Turha
meikäläistä yrittääkään kategoriin laittaa. Hei mä lennän taas. Olen
juppihippipunkkari ja vaihdan paikkaa. Lennän taas." Neljä Ruusua

Am 20 5$B7n(B 2005, Andy Dingley schrieb:

Fountain pens are the pens of a more relaxed and refined age. It is
simply not a problem that one must allow their ink time to dry -- if
there is any hurry, have one of your clerks or a footman deal with
the matter instead.

I disagree with the content and spirit of this remark. For one, slow
drying inks are very much a problem for left handers. They are also a
problem for people who don't want to sit around forgetting how their
sentences should end as they wait for their super-saturated inks to
dry. No thank you. Fortunately, there is a decent variety of inks, a
good number of which dry reasonably quickly. (There are also a number
that are more or less permament if that's a worry.)

It's true that fountain pens are now associated with the upper middle
class: doctors, lawyers, profs, and ambitious corporate functionaries.
We have Montblanc to thank for that. In a previous age, the image of
pens came not only from advertisement but from everyday use. Using a
fountain pen meant that you were a white collar worker, or at least
someone educated enough to write. In contrast to the advertising
image, the use-image of fountain pens was probably something akin to
that of laptops today. At any rate, being underlings themselves, the
typical fountain pen users of the golden age of fountain pens were
unlikely to hand matters off to others.


Bic handwriting is basically ugly.

That depends. Some people write perfectly well with ballpoints. I
don't. I need a fountain pen or a dip pen to be legible.

No one mentioned comfort. Writing with a fountain pen requires less
effort. My hands cramp at the mere thought of pushing a ballpoint
over 10 pages a day.




--


What UNIVERSE is this, please??

wrote in message
ups.com...

1. What's the difference between ballpoint and rollerball?

A rollerball uses liquid ink much like a fountain pen.

2. I like the fact that Bic Cristal pens write a durable and very
reliable ink. Once written it's instantly dry on the page, and I won't
smudge it off. How is it for fountain pens? I have the impression that
their ink on the page isn't as dry, and isn't as resistant to
degeneration or mishaps.

Depends on the ink. For example, if you use Noodler's waterproof inks, once
dried, only fire will obliterate what you wrote.

3. How do cartridges compare to ink bottles? I have the impression that
cartridges are somewhat of a rip-off.

Cartridges are convenient, bottles cost less.

4. How long would an ink bottle last? Let's say I hope to write 10
pages a day.

That depends on the capacity of the bottle and the nib. Since a fine nib
lays down a narrower line than a broad, you may expect a bottle of ink to
last longer with a fine nib than if you write with a medium or broad.

5. Is a fountain pen clearly better than a Bic Cristal?

Yes, simply because over the course of a lifetime, you'll spend less on a
good fp and ink than on multiple purchases of Bics not to mention
environmental friendliness.

I know you'll
probably find this question absurd, but seriously, I have used fountain
pens in the past and though they may be comfortable my impression of
them was that they were a little temperamental, often giving less than
perfectly consistent lines. You see, with a Bic Cristal, lines are
perfectly consistent, and it's no-nonsense. My experience with fountain
pens wasn't so as far as consistency was concerned, and I'm not talking
about them running out of ink or needing maintenance, I mean at their
best. I also remember them as being a little scratchy at times unless
used tenderly, or perhaps I just have a rather vigorous handwriting.

Because you sound heavy-handed and want a consistent line, I recommend that
you get a fp w/ a stiff "hard as nails" steel nib.

6. Are modern fountain pens ever messy? It's been a while since I used
any of them, though I vaguely remember them leaking on the dovet.

Depends on the pen and whether or not you leave it touching something with
the nib uncapped, the same as with a ballpoint.

You see, i'm not after an object of affection, or a article of
craftmanship; I just need something that works, and works well. I also
have no plans to purchase an expensive pen, as I lose pens too easily
and I'd am more comforted by knowing that if I lose one then there'll
be half a dozen at home that I'd already bought, that, and the fact
that I want to throw a few of them around the place so I don't have to
look for it when I need to note something.

Should I just stay with Bic Cristal?

Since you're lax about keeping track of your property, yes. Or, use the fp
only at home for serious writing and scatter Bics around for notes, etc.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Juhapekka Tolvanen" wrote in message
...

http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/rjm...s/montblan.htm

Heh. Loveit. Everybody should make this guy their role model:

"...I rebelled in various ways (none of which would get me fired). I chose
ridiculously colorful and highly patterned socks to go with my gray and blue
suits. I also chose splashy floral ties whenever possible..."


--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Garglemonster" wrote in message
...


It's true that fountain pens are now associated with the upper middle
class: doctors, lawyers, profs, and ambitious corporate functionaries.
We have Montblanc to thank for that. In a previous age, the image of
pens came not only from advertisement but from everyday use. Using a
fountain pen meant that you were a white collar worker, or at least
someone educated enough to write. In contrast to the advertising
image, the use-image of fountain pens was probably something akin to
that of laptops today. At any rate, being underlings themselves, the
typical fountain pen users of the golden age of fountain pens were
unlikely to hand matters off to others.

One of my father's best friends could not read or write very well since he
was forced to quit school at the age of 10, but he loved to carry a shinny
new Parker 51 in his shirt pocket, just so people would think that he could
write really well. However, he could do the best ink drawings you ever saw
with that pen.

I understand that in Japan during the "bubble years" of the 1970s and 80s,
many doctors would go around carrying pretty much the same fountain pens in
their outer coat pocket, but would use ballpoints to write with that they
carried inside their coats. At that time, Montblanc was the pen of choice
for professionals on the job in the "Land of the Rising Sun," to show off
that they had wealth. However, IMHO I really feel that Montblanc is so over
rated, but that is neither here nor there.



Bic handwriting is basically ugly.

That depends. Some people write perfectly well with ballpoints. I
don't. I need a fountain pen or a dip pen to be legible.

No one mentioned comfort. Writing with a fountain pen requires less
effort. My hands cramp at the mere thought of pushing a ballpoint
over 10 pages a day.

I know exactly how you feel. Many of my classmates in college would
complain so much about taking a Blue Book Exam in history classes, not due
to the questions we had to answer that were challenging, but because after
it was over with, many of them complained about how bad their hand hurt.
Some even complained that it felt like it was going to fall off.
Nonetheless, I never experienced such problems using my Sheaffer or
Waterman, and my writing looked fantastic when compared to some of the
chicken scratch from others. However, in my later years some of the exam
booklets were becoming less friendly to fountain pen inks, and would feather
and bleed through to no end. I just wish that Clairefontaine made exam
booklets because they would be friendly to any kind of ink.

--
Sincerely yours,


Ron Wilbanks
"Like a prized watch, a good fountain pen is a trusted companion for life."
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