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#31
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Tony said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------- Hi - I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or 'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black. My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off - ie is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be washed out of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one? I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen either, right? Or have I missed something? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- I am old enough to recall my grandfather keeping two sets of pens, one filled with regular ink, and one with what he called "permanent" ink. For routine matters, he used regular, washable ink. However for certain things, I recall he would use the permanent ink; in fact I had the impression it was a requirement. He kept these pens in his right shirt pocket, while the washable ones were in his left pocket. I believe this was a regular practice prior to the mass advent of ball points, and there must have been cleaning regimes since lost for fountain pens with permanent ink. I have some vintage inks, and one is "Skrip Writing Fluid" described as a permanent "successor to ink". An advertisement for the Sheaffer Snorkel pen appears on the top of the box. I use permanent art inks with my dip pens, and have cleaners I use for them that I have tried in cheap fountain pens, and they appear to work. However, I wonder if these permanent, non-washable inks were, in some cases, their own solvents. C. |
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#32
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Another question to bear in mind about permanent ink is this:
waterfastness and lightfastness are, of course, different properties, not necessarily related. I keep a journal, and I am much more interested in the persistence of ink over time than in its waterfastness. None of my journals has ever got wet, but the ones written 40 years ago (yup, 40) are now fading, even though they are hardly ever opened. I suppose we shall have to wait for someone to test Noodlers black for lightfastness .... Regards Tony On Thu, 22 Apr 2004,08:24:40, Jolyon Wright wrote john cline ii wrote: I also have purchased, but not yet tried, Nathan's Noodlers Black, which I am told is virtually waterproof. I have a bottle of Noodlers black on order & was hoping that someone on this thread had tried it; we must be ink pioneers! jolyon -- ******* email sent to this address is automatically discarded ******* ************************ Please reply to the group ****************** |
#33
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As an ebay junkie I find myself soaking a lot of pens, as for how long the ink has dried I would guess years, or decades in some cases. The ink has dissolved every time. I think the permanent aspect has to do with how well the ink enters into the fibers of the paper and resists exiting. Writing on the paper and dousing it will show that at least some of the ink rinses off (haven't tried Noodler's though), even Skrip colored the water a bit gray as I sprayed the page though the writing was not visibly affected. The negative I find with the permanent black is that I'm always wearing some on my fingers. JP "Tony Stanford" wrote in message news Hi - I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or 'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black. My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off - ie is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be washed out of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one? I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen either, right? Or have I missed something? On the other hand, I have had good dealings with Nathan, and have bought some great pens from him at excellent prices. He knows his onions, as we say in the UK. But I'm still puzzled. Insoluble in water = it won't wash out of a pen? Regards Tony Stanford On Sat, 24 Apr 2004,00:55:45, Chuck Swisher wrote Dave wrote: I am impressed with your (aka Noodlers) water resistance. Does this water resistance make it tough to clean a pen? I am one of the AR types who want several consecutive clean flushes from a pen before it is returned to storage - rinsing a Vac is bad enough without water resistant ink. Love to hear someone's experience on this. I have tried it in cartridge/converter, piston, lever and button fill pen s but not in a Vac. I have found it any harder to clean out of these types of pens than Aurora or Parker black ink. This ink is water based and washes off feeds and nibs just like any other water based inks. Here is a link to some additional information about these inks: http://www.luxurybrandsusa.com/noodlers/ I hope this helps. Best wishes, Chuck Swisher at Swisher Pens, Inc. - www.swisherpens.com Tele: (757) 539-2209 TF: 1-888-340-PENS (7367) Fax: (757) 925-2787 -- ******* email sent to this address is automatically discarded ******* ************************ Please reply to the group ****************** |
#34
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Tony Stanford wrote:
'waterproof' black ink... If it dries on a page and can't be washed off - ie is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be washed out of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one? On the other hand, I have had good dealings with Nathan, and have bought some great pens from him at excellent prices. I've been wondering from the beginning if the waterproof black is bad for fountain pens. However, regarding your second point, I agree that Nathan is tops, he's like his mentor Frank - fair prices, good deals, and a great guy. I'm assuming he makes quality inks so I'm going to buy them when I can see them sometime, but I'm trying out the waterproof black in a pen I don't like just in case it's problematic. How safe is waterproof black in a vintage pen? Nancy |
#35
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Tony Stanford wrote:
Hi - I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or 'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black. My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off - ie is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be washed out of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one? I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen either, right? Or have I missed something? ... You've not missed anything, Tony. The question is, what was added to the ink to make it water-resistant. Some manufacturers add a bit of shellac to retain shine after the ink dries and also increase water resistance. In high enough proportions, you get traditional water-proof India Ink. Some manufacturers add lampblack or carbon to make ink more "permanent" (water and fade resistant). According to Frank's old posts, vintage ink manufacturers added iron-gall to their inks to make them more permanent... same stuff MB uses in their Blue-Black. The vintage inks I've tried are nowhere near water-proof... they run and wash off paper readily... I'll post some samples later. Frank claimed that adding a bit of iron-gall to make an ink more permanent was totally harmless to pens. IME, I'd have to agree. The question you want to ask about Noodler's/Swisher's or any other fountain pen ink claiming to be water-resistant or water-proof is ... what did they add to the ink to make it so. Fountain pen ink is made with dyes that are water soluble... for good reasons. Unless a manufacturer dramatically ups the dye content (which would still produce running in water), nothing but adding some water-resistant substance (like shellac, carbon/lampblack, iron-gall, etc.) is going to increase the ink's water-resistance... Bernadette |
#36
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Noodler's Black:
It was made so that you could dry out the bottle in the dry air near a coal stove and then reconstitute it by adding water. Put a sample in a glass or petrii dish - let it dry...then simply stir plain old water back in to the same level the ink was at when freshly poured - and you'll see for yourself. The ink can rinse off glass, poly plastics, nylon, celluloid, acrylics, lucite, hard rubber, sheet rubber, sheet stainless steel, gold, palladium, pure latex - & if not a simple rinse then with the simple action of a light brushing with water (example: if the pen dried out multiple fillings and was left in a hot drawer for six months or other long period, most will still wash out - but as with any ink, you'll need to clean such a pen - especially Parker Vacs (but not a Sheaffer plunger of course, that filler cleans itself nicely after such a duration with a few plunges in water ;-)...it is of course always best to rinse out the pens BEFORE long term storage when using ANY ink)..... Now for the interesting part. The ink will alter itself in reaction to cellulose paper and once DRIED on cellulose paper you will not be able to hinder its permanence on that paper with: water, UV radiation, alcohol, ammonia, bleach, acetone, and various industrial solvents and detergents often associated with the shady people who alter documents. I hate forgers and I aimed to defeat them to the greatest extent possible with this ink. After trying it yourself sometime, I hope you agree. I also hate feathering - and this ink can be used to do the crosswords on the newspaper or write on the cheapest recycled discount writing paper at Sam's Club or Costco's. It is smooth writing with a deep black color - and unlike Quink and Skrip - or the pricey Aurora...you don't have to readdress an envelope if it fell on the wet ground during a rain storm! It is science in a bottle. This ink was tested by drying it out in pens, drying it out about rod stock and in tubes, reconstituting it with water, hanging it in pure latex bags, and testing more than 90 families of molds against its defenses (the most recent bottles for example are perhaps among the most mold resistant inks in the past 60 years, as I hate mold as much as I hate forgers)....but it also HAD TO BEAT BALL PENS for use on documents, records, signatures, etc... Ball point ink is not as immune to alcohols and other solvents - it also ages very poorly especially when faced with UV light radiation. Write a phrase with Noodler's black on a lined document and tack it up to a sun soaked window - then take a look at the paper a few weeks later and see if the lines exist anymore - and compare them to the phrase you wrote. Also - you can make the paper fall into bits of dust with a concentrated UV beam with the Noodler's Black remaining in filigreed text unaltered - as if it were sunscreen on the paper. Soak the page in the same alcohols that disolve ball pen ink. Soak it in water. Soak it in bleach. Just a few of the experiments one can run if one is so inclined, provided the ink has DRIED on cellulose PAPER!. If it is not dried on paper - it will just rinse away. If you can remove my black ink from paper after it has dried without destroying the document....let me know! I'll then try to fix that as well... ;-) Now a problem arose...legal documents such as a simple mortgage MUST have the signature in BLUE because of photocopy abilities and legal requirements. I only was able to produce such an ink in black (all other colors are conventional, though they don't wash out of paper the way the two major brands do and don't have the organic/mold problems of some others...one "notable" black mentioned in this group washes out to an almost imperceptible faded blue in only 5 minutes soaking - if you think that is good ink, then don't buy Noodler's). Recently the elusive blue was formed, but the component costs were so prohibitive that I quickly concluded there was no chance it could ever be competitive despite its qualities. However, Aurora Black averages $20 per 3 oz, and would STILL cost more than even the UV light/waterproof blue - so Chuck is trying out a sample called "Aquamarine Blue - Contract ink". Perhaps it can compete - contact Chuck for more details. It is an experimental run just to see if the market likes such an ink on the hunch that it might just provide for certain needs such as contract ink. Being resistant to most of a forger's arsenal, UV light, water, etc...blue might be just what is desired for a certain important document that needs a signature to last...in blue. Also - if you get some of the "Swisher Aquamarine Blue - Contract Ink", please send him feedback. Any suggestion to improve the ink and its properties would be greatly appreciated (don't e-mail me though, my e-mail is now beyond hopeless...Chuck has a staff - I don't). Chuck is the only dealer carrying this item, so all feedback should go through Swisher pens/Swisher Ink concerning this model ink. It is a little faster flowing than the black - so can't be used on newsprint or an industrial brown wrapping paper like the black can be - but it shares the other properties of black such as being waterproof once dried on cellulose paper. It is impervious to bleach - try that on any other ink.....also immune to ammonia (separate experiment of course). Keep in mind the water proof inks are themselves almost all water and readily mix with water/disolve in water/rinse out with water - they work only when they dry on cellulose paper! The black ink is most at home on cheap paper - no need to splurge anymore....just get legal pads at the cheapest price you can find and WRITE! This ink was made in part to please you on recycled and defeat the plague that had beset fountain pens because of the increasing dominance of recycled papers in stores. The standard inks (all 34 of them, including specialty issues) were also the result of a war with recycled paper. Lastly - some people have commented that Ottoman Rose is too deep a color to be Persian Rose. Well, vintage Persian Rose had 9 color variations...suspected causes being exposure to sunlight, water dilution, bacterial activity, other colors being mixed when people refilled pens of divergent color contents into the same bottle over time....etc.... The few mint bottles were different in color as well! Some mint bottles had been exposed to sunlight. The color I settled upon represents the closest to what I believe the original factory fresh Persian Rose looked like - with greater intensity than the 50+ year old vintage - and excluding shading/aging/dilution factors. I've told Chuck - if people want the faded look...dilute Ottoman Rose with water...or smear it with your thumb before it dries. Yet, if you like the more intense and fresher line - just leave it be... There will be "Rose of the Shah" at a later date (a few weeks) with an elaborate label in the Noodler's line...just in case some prefer the aged look to the fresh look, a color appropriate for 1979 one might say. It will have a completely different base than Ottoman Rose, yet share equal intensity/contrast upon the page and still be in the old persian rose range. Did people actually like Penman Sapphire? It bleeds like tea in a tea bag...write a word, soak in water - and poof....it vanishes before your eyes! Is that desirable? I won't even try to mimic that - perhaps the color, but certainly not the ink. Is quink black a black or a blue? Soak that in water....and what do you see? Love this group. I bet Frank still reads it! Mr. Swisher: I am impressed with your (aka Noodlers) water resistance. Does this water resistance make it tough to clean a pen? I am one of the AR types who want several consecutive clean flushes from a pen before it is returned to storage - rinsing a Vac is bad enough without water resistant ink. Love to hear someone's experience on this. Dave "Chuck Swisher" wrote in message news:OjShc.919$VQ3.881@lakeread06... At this time the black ink is the only color that Nathan calls "Extremely Water Resistant" |
#37
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Tony Stanford wrote: Hi - I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or 'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black. My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off - ie is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be washed out of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one? I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen either, right? Or have I missed something? ... You've not missed anything, Tony. The question is, what was added to the ink to make it water-resistant. Some manufacturers add a bit of shellac to retain shine after the ink dries and also increase water resistance. In high enough proportions, you get traditional water-proof India Ink. Bogus. No shellac. No latex. No iron gall. No acrylic. No crap. It's the way it holds in a water lattice and the way that ceases to hold when dried in/on only cellulose....and that's all I'm telling you because the technical data is proprietary. Some people will never even try the ink....but to those that do - I hope you like it. If you are still a chronic cynic - I hope the ink made you smile at least once even if only for an all too brief second. |
#38
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Scaupaug wrote:
Noodler's Black: /* snip - loads of interesting stuff */ First time for everything I suppose; I have never felt the urge to print out a post & study it off line until now - so thanks Scaupaug. Anyone with a special interest in ink is (I guess) going to be following this thread; so anyone that was wondering how my aerometric pelikan fount indian ink experiments were going (hm!) may be excited to learn that I have desisted. There was no damage to my pen - but the viscosity of the ink really changed the feel of the pen (this is my *guess* - I'm not a chemist); I was quite surprised the change in feel was very different - my pelikan (in which I still use fount) didn't suffer from this. All the (er) subtelty when out of the pen; the flow seemed to increase radically. Anyway - just maybe I saved somebody the bother of trying this. Very much looking forward to trying noodler's black:- will it be "safe" fount? jolyon |
#40
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That's good enough for me, Nathan.
I wasn't questioning your integrity or knowledge: I just wondered, purely as a query, how a waterproof ink could be washed out of a pen but not out of paper. I'm sure you can understand why someone ignorant of such things would need the question answering. And you've answered it. When you have a UK distributor, I'll be first in line for Noodlers black, my favourite colour. Thanks for the info. Best wishes Tony On Tue, 27 Apr 2004,05:11:04, Scaupaug wrote Tony Stanford wrote: Hi - I share the same hesitance about trying a water-resistant or 'waterproof' black ink, much as I like black. My problem is this. If it dries on a page and can't be washed off - ie is virtually insoluble in water - then how on earth can it be washed out of a pen if the ink is inadvertently left to dry in one? I mean, if it's insoluble, then it won't dissolve out of the pen either, right? Or have I missed something? ... You've not missed anything, Tony. The question is, what was added to the ink to make it water-resistant. Some manufacturers add a bit of shellac to retain shine after the ink dries and also increase water resistance. In high enough proportions, you get traditional water-proof India Ink. Bogus. No shellac. No latex. No iron gall. No acrylic. No crap. It's the way it holds in a water lattice and the way that ceases to hold when dried in/on only cellulose....and that's all I'm telling you because the technical data is proprietary. Some people will never even try the ink....but to those that do - I hope you like it. If you are still a chronic cynic - I hope the ink made you smile at least once even if only for an all too brief second. -- ******* email sent to this address is automatically discarded ******* ************************ Please reply to the group ****************** |
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