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Counterfeit detection primer -- periodic post
What follows is a distillation of many people's opinions and
observations, including my own. Additions and corrections are welcomed. This document is copyrighted -- please don't republish elsewhere. HMTL version available he http://rg.ancients.info/guide. Counterfeit detection primer -- periodic post - - - IN A NUTSHELL: Counterfeit coins are an unavoidable reality in the numismatic marketplace, particularly with ancient coins though with modern coins as well. Learning the diagnostics of coin forgeries as well as the characteristics of authentic coins, buying from reputable dealers, avoiding sellers you don't know who create "private" actions, avoiding sellers with a no-return policy claiming they're selling coins from an estate, and buying smart in general can minimize your exposure to coin counterfeits. The study of counterfeits, along with protecting you, can also be interesting in itself. - - - Perhaps the most frequent question collectors of ancient coins are asked by noncollectors is, "How do you know it's real?" The disconcerting answer sometimes is, "You don't." Not with all coins, not with certainty. The fact is, significant numbers of counterfeit ancient coins are sold as authentic coins. But counterfeiting can be a problem for collectors of modern coins too. Sometimes coins are altered from a common variety to a rare one, a form of counterfeiting. The issue of counterfeits shouldn't deter you from collecting either ancient or modern coins. The number of ancient coin fakes on the market is dwarfed by the number of genuine coins, which were produced in staggering numbers in ancient times. The same is true with modern coins. But counterfeiting is an issue that any savvy collector needs to face. Counterfeit coin detection, particularly with ancient coins, is as much art as science. Because ancients were struck by hand and because of the wide variability of their designs, even the best experts are sometimes fooled. Some of the most prestigious dealers in the world bought large numbers of counterfeit ancient coins as authentic coins at the 1999 and 1988 New York International Numismatic Conventions, coins that only later were discovered to be forgeries. Many dealers contacted buyers and refunded their money, but many of these fakes remain on the market. The most frequently seen counterfeit or altered U.S. coins, according to PCGS's 1997 book Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection, include: * 1856 Flying Eagle cent * 1909-S VDB Lincoln cent * 1955 double-die Lincoln cent * 1916-D Mercury dime * Cincinnati commemorative half dollar * 1804 Bust dollar (a million dollar rarity) * 1893-S Morgan dollar * Saint-Gaudens high-relief double eagle Other frequently seen counterfeit or altered U.S. coins, according to collectors and dealers, include the 1914-D and 1922 Lincoln cents, 1943 bronze Lincoln cent, 1913 Liberty Head nickel (a million dollar rarity), and 1937-D three-legged Buffalo nickel. Unless you're a specialist, you should think carefully about buying any of the above coins unless they're in the slab of a legitimate grading/authentication service, such as PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG. With ancient coins, even low-cost specimens are counterfeited today. As Wayne Sayles points out in his 2001 book Classical Deception: Counterfeits, Forgeries and Reproductions of Ancient Coins, you can no longer assume that it's impractical for someone to make deceptive fakes of inexpensive coins, including someone living in relative poverty in Eastern Europe who may have advanced engraving skills or even a university degree in metallurgy. Counterfeits Online Fakes of modern and ancient coins sold on eBay as authentic coins are a frequent problem, though if you follow the online coin discussion groups, these coin forgeries are frequently exposed. One common scam is for a seller to create an auction of a counterfeit coin, or many counterfeit coins, while preventing people from contacting bidders, which is the most common way that this kind of fraud is stopped (despite the fact that doing this is against official eBay policy). Never buy from a seller who does this unless you know who the seller is. One scam involving ancient coins has been running on eBay for about two years. The seller puts up for auction every couple of weeks the same several dozen cast counterfeits using a new eBay I.D. each time. All are private auctions. The scam artist always changes the categories of his auctions about a day before they close, meaning people following coin auctions don't see them until then. This gives inexperienced buyers enough time to bid on them but doesn't give eBay enough time to act on complaints from those more experienced who know about this scam. With each new I.D., the scammer sometimes creates feedback for himself by buying about a dozen inexpensive non-coin items, while other times he keeps his own feedback private as well. eBay typically cancels each new I.D. this scammer creates (though not always), and each time it sends out warning emails to winning bidders, but often this is after they have already paid. Many hundreds of people have been scammed out of tens of thousands of dollars. You shouldn't count on eBay to prevent or stop the auction of even the most blatant modern or ancient counterfeits or prevent sellers with a history of selling large numbers of counterfeits from engaging in online fraud. eBay has a policy of noninterference, stating that it's just a venue bringing buyers and sellers together. You're largely on your own. Despite the problem of fakes, you shouldn't indiscriminately, and irresponsibly, condemn coins you see online -- online pictures often provide only a fraction of the information you need to properly evaluate a coin's authenticity. But there's nothing wrong with questioning a coin online. If others feel the coin is not suspicious, the seller of the coin will undoubtedly wind up with favorable publicity, and this can lead to more bids and a higher selling price. The coin industry prefers not to discuss too loudly the issue of counterfeits for fear of scaring off collectors. But knowledge is power. As a collector, the more you know, the greater the chance you'll avoid getting taken. Don't overreact and run away. But don't put your head in the sand either. Ownership of Counterfeits The study of counterfeits can actually be an enjoyable part of the hobby of collecting coins, ancient as well as modern. Some collectors enjoy creating a "black cabinet" (also called "black museum") of counterfeit coins for educational purposes, as help in counterfeit detection, and as examples of the black art of counterfeiting. In his American Numismatic Association (ANA) video titled "Famous Fakes and Fakers," Ken Bressett, editor of the Red Book and past president of the ANA, points out that some counterfeits can be considered "true numismatic items" that are "enjoyable to study and collect." The issue of ownership of counterfeit collectable coins, however, is a controversial one, more so with U.S. coins, which are still legal tender regardless of their age, than ancient coins. The American Numismatic Association recommends that you turn in counterfeit coins to it or the U.S. Secret Service. But hundreds if not thousands of auction houses, dealers, and collectors keep counterfeits of collectible coins on hand, and the ANA recognizes this. Those who elect to keep counterfeits should clearly identify them on the labels of their holders to help prevent them from someday inadvertently being sold as genuine coins, says Robert W. Hoge, former curator at the American Numismatic Association, current curator at the American Numismatic Society. The legalities regarding mere possession of these bogus coins aren't clear. Two areas of U.S. law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S. Code, Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of U.S. and world coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973 (Title 15, Chapter 48, Sections 2101 through 2106 of the U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments) deals with counterfeits of ancient coins. Nothing in the above statutes says that simple possession of counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal, and no court in the U.S. has ever ruled on the legality of this. According to Armen R. Vartian, the most visible numismatic legal expert in the U.S., "The statutes do not criminalize the mere possession of counterfeit money." Vartian, a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World legal columnist, and author of the book A Legal Guide to Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles, says it's illegal to own counterfeit coins if your intention is to defraud others with them (sell them as genuine), and it's illegal to refuse to surrender them if the government asks you to, which it's entitled to under the law. That's why Vartian and others recommend that those who maintain black cabinets of counterfeit coins do so quietly. Others feel, however, that mere possession of counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal. Ultimately, it's all opinion because no law or court has ever specifically addressed the issue (there's no "judicial clarity"), though some opinions are considerably more informed than others. Perhaps the bottom line is that nobody has ever been arrested or fined in the U.S. for owning a counterfeit of a collectible coin since the Secret Service, an agency of the U.S. Treasury, began policing the money supply in 1865 and undoubtedly from before this time as well. Although the Secret Service has confiscated high-visibility collections of counterfeits of U.S. coins, this hasn't happened in some 30 years. The ownership of counterfeits of collectible coins a non-issue today in the eyes of the authorities. Protecting Yourself from Fakes The most commonly repeated advice to avoid getting cheated by unwittingly buying a counterfeit as an authentic coin is to buy from a respected dealer or auction house who offers a lifetime guarantee of authenticity with return privileges. You can learn who the respected dealers are by asking around online. But in the age of the Internet, deals can often be had through eBay buying from fellow collectors who are upgrading their coins or otherwise selling them off or buying ancient coins from direct sellers personally bringing them into the U.S. from Europe. Even here, though, sellers should offer a lifetime guarantee of authenticity with return privileges in case the coin later turns out to be fake. With both modern and ancient coins, you should be especially wary of sellers who claim to be selling coins from an estate and who don't offer return privileges. Similarly, avoid sellers who say they can't guarantee a coin's authenticity (this is against eBay rules but still happens, with sellers trying to plant the idea in bidders' minds that they just might get a real bargain). If you have any suspicions, don't bid. The old maxim applies: "If a deal looks too good to be true, it probably is." (See my periodic post "How to avoid getting cheated on eBay" for more tips.) Counterfeit Detection The most common reason a coin is condemned by an expert as being a forgery is, "It doesn't look right." Dealers who've handled many thousands of authentic coins are usually (not always) able to pick out fakes, even if they're not always able to verbalize why. Part of this involves knowing what authentic coins of a particular type typically look like. Part of this involves knowing what counterfeits typically look like. Indications of a cast counterfeit include: * Soft details * Soapy surfaces * Round, mushy boudaries where the devices and legends meet the coin's field * Pitting from air bubbles created during the casting process. However, pitting may not appear if pressure, centrifugal, or vacuum casting was used. Also, genuine coins often show some pitting, or porosity, caused by corrosion, though these pits are typically rougher at their edges, wider at their openings, and less round than pits caused by casting. * If a coin has cracks in its surfaces, the cracks will likely have smooth edges, not sharp, visible particularly under a microscope, even with centrifugal casting. * Raised lumps of metal. However, some genuine ancient coins can show the same if made from rusty dies. * A seam around the edge where the two sides of the mold joined together. However, it's often filed off, in which case file or polishing marks are sometimes visible, particularly under a microscope. On the other hand, ancient coins made from cast flans may show evidence of a casting seam. * A casting sprue, or protuberance at one point on the coin's edge. This can also be filed off, in which case file or polishing marks are sometimes visible, particularly under a microscope. As with a casting seam, ancient coins made from cast flans may show evidence of a casting sprue. * The absence of flow lines from striking, visible particularly under a microscope * Light weight (or sometimes too heavy) * The existence of the an identical coin -- not only one made from the same dies but also one with the same centering, strike, wear patterns, and surface damage. However, forgers may add surface marks. Indications of an electrotype counterfeit include: * Edge seam * Light weight (or sometimes too heavy) Indications of a struck counterfeit include: * Unrealistic styling * Incorrect letters * Overly flat and uniform fields, particularly with ancient coins, caused by the use of a hydraulic press * Die match of a known forgery * Light weight (or sometimes too heavy) * Wrong metal * With ancient coins, the absence of any crystallization. Some counterfeits are artificially corroded and aged with acids, while other times ancient metal is used. * With ancient coins, the absence of surface deposits, the presence of artificial, unrealistic deposits, or the absence of signs of deposits having been cleaned off the coin's surface Testing There are also various quantitative tests you can do, or have done, to help with counterfeit detection. Often, any one test or tests aren't conclusive, but they can provide important information. 1. Weighing a coin, then comparing it with the common weight range for that coin. 2. Measuring a coin's diameter, then also comparing it with the common range for that coin. 3. Specific gravity testing This is a useful if not infallible test. You need to compare a coin's weight in two different media, such as air and water, using a precision scale. However, accuracy can be compromised by tiny air bubbles adhering to the coin's surface and, with ancient coins, internal porosity and voids within the coin's interior. The specific gravity of gold is 19.3, silver is 10.5, copper is 8.8, bronze is 8.7-7.8 (varies with how much tin, lead, and other metals it's alloyed with), brass is 8.6-8.4 (varies with how much zinc it's alloyed with), lead is 11.4, tin is 7.3, zinc (cast) is 6.9, iron (cast) is 7.2, and aluminum is 2.6. 4. Ring test Modern silver coins ring when you tap them. Modern non-silver coins don't, not in the same way. Ancient silver coins don't, not in the same way. With ancient coins, the reason is crystallization, which results when the silver alloy leaches copper and other impurities over time, causing voids between the silver grains. You can sometimes see under magnification feather-like crystals on the coin's surface, especially near the edges, though other times the crystallization is completely internal and invisible. To perform a ring test, balance the coin on the tip of your finger and tap it gently with another coin. With modern coins, you can wear a cotton glove to prevent fingerprints. You need to be careful you don't drop the coin or tap too hard. Highly crystallized ancient coins can break easily. If the coin emits a long resonating ring, like a bell, this indicates that it's a modern silver coin. If it's an ancient coin, this indicates it hasn't become crystallized, that it's likely a modern forgery, because crystallization dampens the ring. If the coin rings for only a second or two, this indicates it may be only slightly crystallized. If the coin emits a tink and doesn't resonate, this indicates it may be moderately crystallized. If the coin emits a thud, this indicates it may be heavily crystallized. The ring test is far from foolproof, however. Sometimes forgers use the flans of authentic, though inexpensive, ancient coins to produce old-metal counterfeits of expensive ancient coins, but this typically happens only with rare or otherwise pricey specimens. Counterfeits made of new silver having small, thick flans don't resonate as well as larger, thinner coins. Counterfeits of new silver may not ring at all if the flan is cracked, occluded with a gas bubble, or filled with another substance. Cast or electrotype counterfeits made of new silver also may not ring. Heavily alloyed silver coins or coins made of bronze, lead, or other base metals will also not ring like pure or nearly pure silver coins. 5. Non-destructive x-ray elemental analysis with a scanning electron microscope This is another useful if not infallible test that analyzes the elemental composition of a coin, but only at its surface to a depth of a few micrometers. The coin is bombarded with electrons, producing x-rays. Because each element has a unique x-ray signature, it's possible to detect which elements comprise the coin's surface, down to a sensitivity of about 0.1 percent (trace elements may not be detected). Authentication Often, a dealer will agree to look at a coin you're questioning, particularly a dealer you've bought from in the past, and offer his opinion regarding its authenticity. All of the established, legitimate grading services that deal with U.S. coins provide authentication along with grading, including: PCGS (Professional Coin Grading Service) http://www.pcgs.com NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of America) http://www.ngccoin.com ANACS (Amos Certification Service) http://www.anacs.com ICG (Independent Coin Grading Co.) http://www.icgcoin.com The following services provide ancient coin authentication: ACCS (Ancient Coin Certification Service) http://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html IBSCC (International Bureau for the Suppression of Counterfeit Coins) http://www.iapn.ch The British Museum, Department of Coins and Medals http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/cm/cmhome.html Education Learning about counterfeits can be fun, in addition to protecting you. The following are books about counterfeit U.S. coins: Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection PCGS Ballantine Publishing Group, 1997 Counterfeit Detection Reference Guide Bill Fivaz Stanton Printing, 1997 Detecting Counterfeit and Altered U.S. Coins: A Correspondence Course J.P. Martin American Numismatic Association, 1996 Official Guide to Detecting Altered & Counterfeit U.S. Coins & Currency Marc Hudgeons House of Collectibles, 1981 Standard Catalog of Counterfeit and Altered United States Coins Virgil Hancock and Larry Spanbauer Sanford J. Durst, 1979 Counterfeit, Mis-struck, and Unofficial U.S. Coins: A Guide for the Detection of Cast and Struck Counterfeits, Electro-types, and Altered Coins Don Taxay Arco Pub. Co., 1963 The following Web sites provide information and/or photos of fake ancient coins: Calgary's Modern Fakes of Ancient Coins Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/fakes.htm Barry & Darling Ancient Coins' Counterfeits and Counterfeiters Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins http://www.ancient-times.com/newsletters/n13/n13.html Doug Smith's Fakes Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins http://www.ancientcoinmarket.com/ds/fakes/fakes.html Twelve Caesar's Fakes & Forgeries Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins http://www.12caesars.com/Fakes___For...forgeries.html Dennis Kroh's Ancient Coins & Modern Fakes Information about fakes of ancient coins http://members.aol.com/kroh/fakes.html CGB-CFG Fakes Photos of fakes of ancient coins http://www.cgb.fr/monnaies/articles/faux/indexgb.html Jencek's Modern Forgeries of Ancient Coins Photos of fakes of ancient coins http://www.ancient-coins.com/shop/ag....26909*sf3lp4? Forgeries of Ancient Roman and Greek Coins Photos of fakes of ancient coins offered for sale as authentic coins on eBay http://www.chijanofuji.com/ancientforgeries.html Fakes Gallery Photos mostly of Slavey replicas of ancient coins http://www.ancientcoinart.com/fakes_gallery.html Slavey Replicas Photos of Slavey replicas of ancient coins http://people2.clarityconnect.com/we...ei_repros.html Slaveys at Ancients.info More photos of Slavey replicas http://www.ancients.info/gallery/sho...ry.php/cat/511 Discussing Fakes The following are two e-mail discussion groups specifically about counterfeit coins: CoinForgeryDiscussionList http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoinForgeryDiscussionList ACFDL (Ancient Coin Forgeries Discussion List) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACFDL The Usenet discussion group rec.collecting.coins can be a good resource for getting opinions about questionable U.S. coins. You can access it through a newsreader such as Forte Agent, e-mail program with newsreading capabilities such as Microsoft Outlook Express, or the Web through Google Groups at http://groups.google.com. More Information Counterfeit Coin Bulletin http://www.money.org/publicationsdept.html Subscription periodical about recently discovered U.S., world, and ancient counterfeit coins American Numismatic Association (ANA) and the International Association of Professional Numismatists (IAPN) Counterfeit Coin Club http://www.brindin.com/hyperdict/ccc Group in Canada that puts out a subscription quarterly newsletter about counterfeit coins Here are some Web pages I've put together about counterfeit coins: Draped Bust Dollar Counterfeits http://mywebpages.comcast.net/reidgo...ts/page_7.html Bulgarian School Counterfeits of Apollonia Pontika Drachms http://www.rg.cointalk.org/bulgarian_school Parion Hemidrachm and Forgeries http://rg.ancients.info/parion Thracian and Thasos Tetradrachm Forgeries http://rg.ancients.info/thracetets/forgery.html Three Alexander the Great Fourees http://mywebpages.comcast.net/reidgold/fourees Deks: Three Ancient Greek Dekadrachms, Fake and Real http://mywebpages.comcast.net/reidgold/deks Ultimately, as long as you're careful, you shouldn't fret over the possibility of getting fooled by counterfeits. As Sayles points out, virtually all serious collectors of ancient coins, for instance, will sooner or later unwittingly add a fake to their collection, and this is not necessarily a sign of naivete. With U.S. coins, the grading services have greatly reduced the chances of being cheated with high-end specimens. -- Email: (delete "remove this") Coin Collecting: Consumer Protection Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
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No copyright claimed, intended or implied:
As a service to those who might actually believe what is written in the periodically posted "counterfeit detection primer" regarding the legalities of possessing counterfeit coins, I offer the following: US Code Title 49 Subtitle X Chapter 803 Section 80302 specifically defines forged, altered and counterfeit coins of the United States or any other government of a foreign country as contraband. In upholding a lower Court decision regarding the possession of counterfeits in the case of JSG Boggs v. Robert E. Rubin, Secretary of the Treasury, et al, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit stated the following regarding contraband: “Contraband per se comprises objects which are inherently unlawful to possess, regardless of how they are used.” The decision of the Court was appealed to the United States Supreme Court who declined to hear the case. Additionally, US Code Title 18, Part I - Crimes, Chapter 25 - Counterfeiting and Forgery, Section 492 - Forfeiture of Counterfeit Parephenalia requires that all counterfeit coins be surrendered to the government. It further states that if the government has to ask you to surrender the counterfeits, and you refuse, you can be fined and/or jailed. In their decision against Boggs, the Court of Appeals quoted the text of this statute and upheld the lower Court’s ruling that this statute did prohibit possession of counterfeits. The Hobby Protection Act mentioned by the author of the “counterfeit detection primer” is basically a set of guidelines under the jurisdiction of the Federal Trade Commission for the legal manufacture or import of imitation numismatic and political items. The Hobby Protection Act specifically states that it does not replace of supercede existing counterfeiting laws and contains absolutely no evidence to support the author’s claim that it is the applicable law pertaining to fakes of ancient coins. The author claims the former ANA Curator advises marking the holder containing the fake coin. This advice runs counter to the requirements of the organization he worked for at the time the author interviewed him. The ANA Member Code of Ethics requires that the marking be done in the metal of the coin. Finally, the author fails to mention that this former ANA Curator and a man the author identified as “the top counterfeiting guy at Secret Service headquarters” both told him that possession of counterfeit coins was indeed illegal. ++++++++++ Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge When bidding online always sit on your helmet Just say NO to counterfeits |
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Phil DeMayo wrote:
No copyright claimed, intended or implied: As a service to those who might actually believe what is written in the periodically posted "counterfeit detection primer" regarding the legalities of possessing counterfeit coins, I offer the following: US Code Title 49 Subtitle X Chapter 803 Section 80302 specifically defines forged, altered and counterfeit coins of the United States or any other government of a foreign country as contraband. In upholding a lower Court decision regarding the possession of counterfeits in the case of JSG Boggs v. Robert E. Rubin, Secretary of the Treasury, et al, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit stated the following regarding contraband: “Contraband per se comprises objects which are inherently unlawful to possess, regardless of how they are used.* The decision of the Court was appealed to the United States Supreme Court who declined to hear the case. Additionally, US Code Title 18, Part I - Crimes, Chapter 25 - Counterfeiting and Forgery, Section 492 - Forfeiture of Counterfeit Parephenalia requires that all counterfeit coins be surrendered to the government. It further states that if the government has to ask you to surrender the counterfeits, and you refuse, you can be fined and/or jailed. In their decision against Boggs, the Court of Appeals quoted the text of this statute and upheld the lower Court’s ruling that this statute did prohibit possession of counterfeits. The Hobby Protection Act mentioned by the author of the “counterfeit detection primer* is basically a set of guidelines under the jurisdiction of the Federal Trade Commission for the legal manufacture or import of imitation numismatic and political items. The Hobby Protection Act specifically states that it does not replace of supercede existing counterfeiting laws and contains absolutely no evidence to support the author’s claim that it is the applicable law pertaining to fakes of ancient coins. The author claims the former ANA Curator advises marking the holder containing the fake coin. This advice runs counter to the requirements of the organization he worked for at the time the author interviewed him. The ANA Member Code of Ethics requires that the marking be done in the metal of the coin. Finally, the author fails to mention that this former ANA Curator and a man the author identified as “the top counterfeiting guy at Secret Service headquarters* both told him that possession of counterfeit coins was indeed illegal. That is solely due to the fact that the author in question is a Grade A Weinie. Alan 'HTH' |
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On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 15:34:36 -0500, Reid Goldsborough
wrote: What follows is a distillation of many people's opinions and observations, including my own. Additions and corrections are This is in response to further nonsense from Phil DeMayo about this subject, gleaned from Google Groups. Phil DeMayo isn't a lawyer but plays one on the Internet, doing things no lawyer would ever do, combining various unrelated statutes and nonbinding court cases and pronouncing definitively, over and over, what's legal and what's not when there's anything but judicial clarity about the subject of ownership of counterfeits of collectible coins. He has said that Armen Vartian, the most visible numismatic legal expert in the country, a lawyer who writes a legal column for Coin World, has recently written a particular column about the legalities of collecting counterfeit coins, and has written a book about collectibles and the law, must not have read the counterfeit statutes because his interpretation differs from Phil's. Phil has said that you don't need to interpret laws, just read them. From his reading of the law, sans interpretation and context, he has warned people repeatedly about the dire legal consequence they face if they collect counterfeit coins, including jail, fines, and car confiscated, when none of these consequences have ever taken place. He is legalistic in the extreme, contending that all laws and all rules should be followed to the letter, yet hypocritically refusing to answer the simple question of whether he himself has broken the law by driving faster than the speed limit, in response only calling others hypocritical. He is moralistic in the extreme, impugning the ethics of those who collect or study or write about counterfeits yet whose ethics online leave a great deal to be desired, not to mention his maturity, exemplified by among other things his taking a picture of me from my Web site, defacing it, then putting it on his Web site. He doesn't understand the difference between jurisprudence and ethics, simplemindedly equating the two, and between counterfeits and replicas, simplemindedly equating the two. His sole or at least primary source of "research" is Google, and he appears to believe whatever he finds, particularly if it comes from an "official" source such as a government Web site. His purpose in putting out information isn't to disseminate truth but to support his own entrenched ideas, to promote his agenda. He is rabidly anti-counterfeit, yet he repeatedly puts out counterfeit information -- phony and fake -- about this subject. He has said flat-out that he doesn't make mistakes, and his online debating style reflects this -- sheer stuck-in-the-mud, never-budge-an-inch intransigence. When it becomes clear that he's wrong about a point, he has repeatedly blurted out "Bite me!" rather than saying, level-headedly, "I hadn't considered that," or "That's something I didn't know," or "I need to check more into this," or "You may be right." -- Email: (delete "remove this") Coin Collecting: Consumer Protection Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
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Reid Goldsborough circumvents his killfile by Googling:
This is in response to further nonsense from Phil DeMayo about this subject, gleaned from Google Groups. snip Reid Goldborough has proven time and time again that he is an imperious a-hole....and you can Google that as well. ++++++++++ Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge When bidding online always sit on your helmet Just say NO to counterfeits |
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From: Reid Goldsborough But hundreds if not thousands of auction houses, dealers, and collectors keep counterfeits of collectible coins on hand, and the ANA recognizes this. The ANA has made no such statement. Reid's presentation above is simply a reading-between-the-lines on his part. Those who elect to keep counterfeits should clearly identify them on the labels of their holders to help prevent them from someday inadvertently being sold as genuine coins, says Robert W. Hoge, former curator at the American Numismatic Association, current curator at the American Numismatic Society. US law says that the word "COPY" should be on the item: (b) The word "COPY" shall be marked upon the item legibly, conspicuously, and nondeceptively, and in accordance with the further requirements of these regulations. (1) The word "COPY" shall appear in capital letters, in the English language. (2) The word "COPY" shall be marked on either the obverse or the reverse surface of the item. It shall not be marked on the edge of the item. (3) An imitation numismatic item of incusable material shall be incused with the word "COPY" in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction, and a minimum depth of three-tenths of one millimeter (0.3 mm) or to one-half (\1/2\) the thickness of the reproduction, whichever is the lesser. The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word "COPY" shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction. (4) An imitation numismatic item composed of nonincusable material shall be imprinted with the word "COPY" in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction. The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word "COPY" shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction. Vartian, a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World legal columnist, and author of the book A Legal Guide to Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles, says it's illegal to own counterfeit coins if your intention is to defraud others with them (sell them as genuine), and it's illegal to refuse to surrender them if the government asks you to, which it's entitled to under the law. Vartian wrote a book "Legal Guide to Buying And Selling Art And Collectibles", which Reid may refer to later on. The word "counterfeit" appears in one paragraph in the book, on pages 28-29. In part: "Counterfeiting of items such as coins and stamps is prohibited by federal law, and it is actually a crime to sell counterfeits of such items." Note that Vartain says nothing about intent, just plain and simple that you cannot legally sell them. That's why Vartian and others recommend that those who maintain black cabinets of counterfeit coins do so quietly. Reid has never attributed these supposed remarks of Vartain to anything in print, nor named the "others". Others feel, however, that mere possession of counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal. The reason being that if they have to be surrendered without need for a warrent, court order, or other form of "due process", that the requirement to surrender them on demand equates to ownership being illegal. 4. Ring test Modern silver coins ring when you tap them. This has been stated to be misleading due to impurities in the alloy of even modern coins. For some reason, Reid still leaves it in his posting. -- mark |
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What follows is a brew of my opinions and
observations, specifically directed towards R.G.'s cockalorum. "Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message ... On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 15:34:36 -0500, Reid Goldsborough wrote: What follows is a distillation of many people's opinions and observations, including my own. Additions and corrections are This is in response to further nonsense from Phil DeMayo about this subject, gleaned from Google Groups. To thine own self be true, Reid. When you kf someone, at least have the decency to refrain from answering their posts. Phil has said that you don't need to interpret laws, just read them. Which is a pretty good start.... He is legalistic in the extreme, contending that all laws and all rules should be followed to the letter, ... There's a problem with that? I'd rather have a neighbour who was as such, instead of one who (like you, rg?) views the law as an inconvenient fiction. He is moralistic in the extreme, There's a problem with that? ... impugning the ethics of those who collect or study or write about counterfeits yet whose ethics online leave a great deal to be desired, not to mention his maturity, exemplified by among other things his taking a picture of me from my Web site, defacing it, then putting it on his Web site. Classic projection again, RG. You're getting confused again. *YOU* did this. Look: http://www.netaxs.com/~reidgold/column/IndexFrame.html ("normal" photo) and http://www.netaxs.com/~reidgold/column/reid_pinch.html (defaced photo). Again, s-l-o-w-l-y : YOU did this Reid. On YOUR (lower case 'w') web site. He doesn't understand the difference between jurisprudence and ethics, Don't you consider that jurisprudence is at least *intended* to reflect the ethics of the society which formulates it? Are you glorifying those who deliberately corrupt the intent of the law to serve their own ends? simplemindedly equating the two, and between counterfeits and replicas, simplemindedly equating the two. Can a replica be passed off as genuine, in the fashion of a counterfeit? If so, then the similarity is not simpleminded. His sole or at least primary source of "research" is Google, and he appears to believe whatever he finds, How do you know this? Has he said as such? ...particularly if it comes from an "official" source such as a government Web site. Uh huh. Hands up all those who'd trust the info on RG's site(s) in preference to that from a US government site. ..... I thought so. His purpose in putting out information isn't to disseminate truth but to support his own entrenched ideas, to promote his agenda. He is rabidly anti-counterfeit, yet he repeatedly puts out counterfeit information -- phony and fake -- about this subject. Poor analogy. A counterfeit is a facsimile, a copy of something genuine. When done well, it is indistinguishable from the original. Are you accusing Phil of making very good copies (indistiguishable) copies of the truth? He has said flat-out that he doesn't make mistakes, ....and this wasn't ironic or sarcastic? You took it literally, I presume? ...and his online debating style reflects this -- sheer stuck-in-the-mud, never-budge-an-inch intransigence. Whereas when *you* are presented with determined, logical and persistent opposition to your self-aggrandising posts and fatuous, childish arguing style, what do you do? Killfile the antagonist. Very level-headed and mature. ... When it becomes clear that he's wrong about a point, he has repeatedly blurted out "Bite me!" ....and you have *never* blurted out an intemperate comment? ...rather than saying, level-headedly, "I hadn't considered that," or "That's something I didn't know," or "I need to check more into this," or "You may be right." You don't do that very often either, Reid, despite an enormous number of opportunities to do so. ================= The above is posted as a public service to those not yet familiar with RG's debationg style. Reid: Kindly don't answer. I treasure my spot in the killfile. |
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"Phil DeMayo" wrote in message ... I guess he hasn't seen your "ME, ME, ME" rendition ;-) ;-) Hehehe There's more, actually, but I'm waiting for the right moment... Isn't it a shame that I have been foolish enough to believe actual court transcripts and the archived text of US Code? Earlier I was doing a "findlaw.com" search of various libraries for the phrase "counterfeit coins". When I limited the search to "legal web sites" I couldn't believe how many times Reid's web pages came up. I laughed my ass off...."legal" web sites indeed. ;-) What gets my goat the most is the theme running though his post, and his reply to your post, that *everyone* twists and corrupts the intent of legislation to suit their own ends - that no-one can be law-abiding for the sake of it - or that anyone who is law-abiding is a gormless chump. Now if *I* was King for a day... |
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In , on 12/14/2003
at 06:34 PM, Leo M. Cavanaugh III said: Yes, you should be ashamed that you take the word of the U.S. Code ahead of RG himself. The REAL shame is that there are idiots (such as yourself) who seem to think Phil can read and interpret the US Code and "transcripts" in question and it actually means something. I've fond non-thinkers tend to stick together. Case in point. US Code and the Boggs transscripts are linked from my site. See: http://rcc.servehttp.com/#bogophobe Try reading this? Then tell me what you think. Key questions might include: Do the words "possess" or "possession" seem to be present? Does the Boggs ruling, where he actually LOST the case (and he actually produced and purchased things with his wares), levy any real penalty on Mr Boggs? Did they confiscate any cars? Houses? Hang him? Put him in prison at all? Hmmmmm? All these, of course, are rhetorical. Nick |
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