Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 07:20:54 -0700 (PDT), Peter
wrote:

On Oct 13, 9:49*am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:

*As for me, I just hope my unslabbed F15 1926-S
nickel is real.

James the Optimistic- Hide quoted text -


Naturally, I hope you are not disappointed. Even so, I still think a
central question is why anyone would pay more for a collectible coin
than the price the Chinese ask. Their best quality of coins are made
on genuine presses that were used by the US mint. They can produce
the same pressures, exactly. They have actual dies from the US mint
and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with computer
enhanced laser etching techniques. They have access to the genuine
planchettes that the mint uses. If someone is collecting something,
they often aim for the best available; is genuine really better? In
fact, how is it different? As other posters remarked, labor in China
is very cheap and this business is not illegal in China. If it is
possible to find a difference between the Chinese product and the
original coins, it seems almost certain that the Chinese will shortly
improve their product so that there is not any longer a difference.

I once contacted a Chinese seller to see if I could buy coins that had
not been artificially aged. I'd be willing to pay a reasonable amount
for a nice, freshly minted Morgan or Trade dollar (MS-67+) like some I
have seen in pictures of their operation. But the seller just replied
that he could pick out one of the nicer coins for me. He then added a
long sales pitch about how I could buy coins without the "replica"
stamp, even made out of 90% silver. Plus there were links to his
site/store showing pictures of dozens of key/semi-key date Morgan
dollars and probably every Trade dollar.

On Oct 14, 3:28*am, Mike Marotta wrote:
On Oct 13, 2:26 pm, Peter wrote:

... * The link
below is from someone else that attended a lecture given about the
same time and is illustrated.
http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=741248
*... Dr. Dubay has actually worked with the creators of the coins
and knows them personally.

Thanks for the link. *The post on Collectors Universe is from Dennis
Tucker, a publisher with Whitman. *If he was impressed with the
presentation, then it was serious. *I note also in that post that Dr.
Dubay's categorization of Chinese fakes is implemented in the new
Professional Edition of The Red Book.

The pictures are stunning. Proof, of course requires more. *As we
know, pictures alone cannot convey enough information. *At my talk on
fakes in at the ANA in Pittsburgh, I showed slides of counterfeit
Seated Dollars. *Dealers found them convincing. *However, handling the
coins gave them away. *

Is it possible to determine whether a slabbed coin is a fake one
without breaking the plastic casing?


That said, I also showed fake Morgan Dollars
for which hands-on evidence was not helpful. *This problem is not new
to 2009. *It has been growing over the years. *The Chinese fakes of
mainstream US Type coins is now a concern. *Everyone is wringing their
hands. *Back in 2000 no one was worried about the flood of Bulgarian
fakes of ancients.

Put into a wider context, fake Bosch brake pads, counterfeit Oster
blenders, hokey Gucci handbags, pirated pop music, and other phony
consumer goods are serious problems. *Life goes on if someone wears an
Olympic t-shirt that was not licensed by the Olympic Committee.
However, in the case of industrial goods and household appliances,
life might not go on. *We buy the name brand because we expect the
quality that goes with it. *The other side of the coin is that these
criminal enterprises join the cash streams of international
terrorism. *People who smuggle cigarettes also smuggle weapons.

Mike M.
Michael E. Marotta

On Oct 15, 11:16*pm, " wrote:

Is it possible to determine whether a slabbed coin is a fake one
without breaking the plastic casing?

Yes. Breaking a coin out of a slab lets you weigh it and inspect its
edges, which can be important. You can also do a specific gravity test
only with a coin out of its slab.

But you're often able to condemn a coin as a counterfeit using other
criteria, the most important being style and fabric. Lesser quality
forgeries are different in style from the authentic coins they copy.
They may be grossly off, or subtly off, for instance by the pairing
obverse and reverse dies of different years.

Better quality forgeries, including some of the best die-transfer
fakes coming out of China, have a fabric that gives them away. Their
surfaces for instance may appear to have the luster of an uncirculated
coin when the degree of wear is such that such luster would be
impossible. Or their rims, including any denticles, may be
uncharacteristic of coins of that type.

There are lots of other tests too. But some of the most interesting
fakes are those that in fact are in a slab, including those of the top-
tier grading companies, which does happen. According to all reports
and evidence, though, the top-tier companies do catch the vast
majority of fakes.

--

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Reid Goldsborough wrote:
On Oct 15, 11:16 pm, " wrote:

Is it possible to determine whether a slabbed coin is a fake one
without breaking the plastic casing?

Yes. Breaking a coin out of a slab lets you weigh it and inspect its
edges, which can be important. You can also do a specific gravity test
only with a coin out of its slab.

But you're often able to condemn a coin as a counterfeit using other
criteria, the most important being style and fabric. Lesser quality
forgeries are different in style from the authentic coins they copy.
They may be grossly off, or subtly off, for instance by the pairing
obverse and reverse dies of different years.

Better quality forgeries, including some of the best die-transfer
fakes coming out of China, have a fabric that gives them away. Their
surfaces for instance may appear to have the luster of an uncirculated
coin when the degree of wear is such that such luster would be
impossible. Or their rims, including any denticles, may be
uncharacteristic of coins of that type.

There are lots of other tests too. But some of the most interesting
fakes are those that in fact are in a slab, including those of the
top- tier grading companies, which does happen. According to all
reports and evidence, though, the top-tier companies do catch the vast
majority of fakes.

At 2009 CICF, PCGS was set up and were displaying an entire caseful of coins
that they had slabbed - foolers, every one.

James the Jester

On Oct 16, 12:05*pm, Reid Goldsborough
wrote:
On Oct 15, 11:16*pm, " wrote:

Is it possible to determine whether a slabbed coin is a fake one
without breaking the plastic casing?

Yes. Breaking a coin out of a slab lets you weigh it and inspect its
edges, which can be important. You can also do a specific gravity test
only with a coin out of its slab.

But you're often able to condemn a coin as a counterfeit using other
criteria, the most important being style and fabric. Lesser quality
forgeries are different in style from the authentic coins they copy.
They may be grossly off, or subtly off, for instance by the pairing
obverse and reverse dies of different years.

Better quality forgeries, including some of the best die-transfer
fakes coming out of China, have a fabric that gives them away. Their
surfaces for instance may appear to have the luster of an uncirculated
coin when the degree of wear is such that such luster would be
impossible. Or their rims, including any denticles, may be
uncharacteristic of coins of that type.

There are lots of other tests too. But some of the most interesting
fakes are those that in fact are in a slab, including those of the top-
tier grading companies, which does happen. According to all reports
and evidence, though, the top-tier companies do catch the vast
majority of fakes.

Is it easier to fake the packaging of top tier grading companies than
the coins?


--

Consumer:http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur:http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit:http://rg.ancients.info/bogos