on handwriting

On Thu, 06 May 2004 22:35:49 +1200, Michael Wright
wrote:

Any ideas on how to learn that? I really need to improve my handwriting.
:/

Well, I learned from a Teach Yourself series handbook, but that
was more than 40 years ago :-(

The current boss of handwriting instruction in the UK seems to
be Rosemary Sassoon, and her _Teach Yourself Better Handwriting_
goes for about US$10 on Amazon.

Ah, I've been meaning to get that. I'll definitely check that out.

I assume that italic hands are constant across Europe, and don't
have the kind of national variations that cursives show.

I learned cursive in school, and I hated it. I can't write cursive, nor
read it. I much prefer italic.

You really want a straight-cut nib to learn, so it's a good
excuse to get a calligraphy pen. Get the narrowest calligraphy
nib, if what you want to do is to learn a practical hand for
everyday use. Italic uses the width difference in the nib, and
the shape of the nib will really guide your hand in making the
strokes the right shape.

Would a stub nib be good for this?

I'm a little torn on what to get. I'm new to fountain pens, so I haven't
been able to try a lot of different nibs. I only have one FP, a Waterman
Phileas with a medium nib, and I would definitely like to try something
with a bit more line variation.

On one hand, I don't want to buy a lot of pens that aren't right for me,
but on the other hand I won't know what I really want until I've tried
it. Any suggestions on a cheap way to try out different pens? I guess I
could buy some Pelikan M150s with customized nibs from Richard Binder.

Vintage is another option (especially to check out flex nibs), but I'm
not sure where the best place would be to go for those. Ebay doesn't
seem to have a lot, at least not with stub nibs.

--
Be seeing you.

On Thu, 06 May 2004 18:37:19 GMT, Gordon Tillman
wrote:

One answer would be to teach yourself some practical variety of
italic handwriting.

Any ideas on how to learn that? I really need to improve my handwriting.
:/

I was in the same boat and after reading numerous recommendations I
ordered this book:

Write Now - a complete self-teaching program for better handwriting

by Barbara Getty and Inga Dubay
Continuing Education Press
Portland State University
ISBN 0-87678-089-3

I've only had it for about a week, but have been practising some every
day and I have noticed a definite improvement!

Thanks! I hadn't heard of this book before, so I'll check that out.

--
Be seeing you.

Thore Karlsen wrote:
SNIP

You really want a straight-cut nib to learn, so it's a good
excuse to get a calligraphy pen. Get the narrowest calligraphy
nib, if what you want to do is to learn a practical hand for
everyday use. Italic uses the width difference in the nib, and
the shape of the nib will really guide your hand in making the
strokes the right shape.


Would a stub nib be good for this?

A stub nib is kind of like an italic, but less so. You might
well end up writing with a stub, but I'd suggest the more
extreme straight-cut italic for learning.

I'm a little torn on what to get. I'm new to fountain pens, so I haven't
been able to try a lot of different nibs. I only have one FP, a Waterman
Phileas with a medium nib, and I would definitely like to try something
with a bit more line variation.

On one hand, I don't want to buy a lot of pens that aren't right for me,
but on the other hand I won't know what I really want until I've tried
it. Any suggestions on a cheap way to try out different pens? I guess I
could buy some Pelikan M150s with customized nibs from Richard Binder.

You don't have to spend money. Italic nibs don't have "iridium"
blobs and are made of steel, so they don't cost much. You just
need a comfortable holder with an ink supply stuck on the back
of one. You can go below a Phileas and get first-rate
practicality. Sheaffer do a Calligraphy pen, which is based on
the No Nonsense. Lamy have a calligraphy pen (? "Joy," but that
may be one of the other companies), which has the long tail of a
desk pen, but also has a cap so you can carry it. Similar pens
by Pelikan and Rotring, IIRC. Sometimes you see Parker
calligraphy sets. Osmiroid is popular, though I have an
irrational hesitation about the brand, based on boyhood
prejudices. In short, any stationer's that sells pens will have
at least one brand of El Cheapo calligraphy pens, and this is
what you want, with one of the narrower nibs (unless you have
*really* big handwriting).
Vintage is another option (especially to check out flex nibs), but I'm
not sure where the best place would be to go for those. Ebay doesn't
seem to have a lot, at least not with stub nibs.


At the moment, you don't want flex. Flex and italic
(straight-cut) nibs both give variation in line width, but they
do it in quite different ways. Flex nibs are hard to control,
and you don't want that complication while you are re-fashioning
your handwriting.

Of course, once you've done as much practice as you want, you
can do whatever you like; I have a few old pens with stub nibs
(latest a Sheaffer Touchdown), and I have had nibs remodelled
into italics; Richard Binder's Italifine is a very good
invention. But for starters, until you know exactly what *you*
want, a low-cost calligraphy pen is the way to go, and you'll
always have a use for it.

Good luck

Michael

On Fri, 07 May 2004 07:21:49 +1200, Michael Wright
wrote:

I'm a little torn on what to get. I'm new to fountain pens, so I haven't
been able to try a lot of different nibs. I only have one FP, a Waterman
Phileas with a medium nib, and I would definitely like to try something
with a bit more line variation.

On one hand, I don't want to buy a lot of pens that aren't right for me,
but on the other hand I won't know what I really want until I've tried
it. Any suggestions on a cheap way to try out different pens? I guess I
could buy some Pelikan M150s with customized nibs from Richard Binder.

You don't have to spend money. Italic nibs don't have "iridium"
blobs and are made of steel, so they don't cost much. You just
need a comfortable holder with an ink supply stuck on the back
of one. You can go below a Phileas and get first-rate
practicality. Sheaffer do a Calligraphy pen, which is based on
the No Nonsense. Lamy have a calligraphy pen (? "Joy," but that
may be one of the other companies), which has the long tail of a
desk pen, but also has a cap so you can carry it. Similar pens
by Pelikan and Rotring, IIRC. Sometimes you see Parker
calligraphy sets. Osmiroid is popular, though I have an
irrational hesitation about the brand, based on boyhood
prejudices. In short, any stationer's that sells pens will have
at least one brand of El Cheapo calligraphy pens, and this is
what you want, with one of the narrower nibs (unless you have
*really* big handwriting).

Ah, you're right. Office Depot has some really cheap Sheaffer sets at
$10-$15. Can't go wrong at that price!

Vintage is another option (especially to check out flex nibs), but I'm
not sure where the best place would be to go for those. Ebay doesn't
seem to have a lot, at least not with stub nibs.

At the moment, you don't want flex. Flex and italic
(straight-cut) nibs both give variation in line width, but they
do it in quite different ways. Flex nibs are hard to control,
and you don't want that complication while you are re-fashioning
your handwriting.

Yes, I was thinking for later. I'd like to try out several kinds of nibs
to determine what I like. Eventually I'd like to settle on just a couple
of good pens, and before I spend the big money I want to know what I'm
looking for. I also collect mechanical watches, and I've found that I'm
happier with just a couple that I use regularly instead of a large
collection of watches I rarely use.

Of course, once you've done as much practice as you want, you
can do whatever you like; I have a few old pens with stub nibs
(latest a Sheaffer Touchdown), and I have had nibs remodelled
into italics; Richard Binder's Italifine is a very good
invention. But for starters, until you know exactly what *you*
want, a low-cost calligraphy pen is the way to go, and you'll
always have a use for it.

Excellent! I'm picking up a set today on my way home.

--
Be seeing you.

Thore Karlsen wrote:

I'm a little torn on what to get. I'm new to fountain pens, so I haven't
been able to try a lot of different nibs..... and I would definitely like
to try something with a bit more line variation.

On one hand, I don't want to buy a lot of pens that aren't right for
me,... Vintage is another option (especially to check out flex nibs), but
I'm not sure where the best place would be to go for those.

If ever there was someone who needed to go to a pen show, it's you.
Look on Susan Wirth's site and check out if there are any pen shows
coming to a town near you sometime soon. Seriously, you need to go to
a pen show! Bring ink, and ask vintage vendors to allow you to dip the
pens. Bring something to wipe the nibs off too. You'll think you died
and went to heaven.

Nancy

On Thu, 06 May 2004 20:09:37 GMT, (Nancy Handy)
wrote:

I'm a little torn on what to get. I'm new to fountain pens, so I haven't
been able to try a lot of different nibs..... and I would definitely like
to try something with a bit more line variation.

On one hand, I don't want to buy a lot of pens that aren't right for
me,... Vintage is another option (especially to check out flex nibs), but
I'm not sure where the best place would be to go for those.

If ever there was someone who needed to go to a pen show, it's you.
Look on Susan Wirth's site and check out if there are any pen shows
coming to a town near you sometime soon. Seriously, you need to go to
a pen show! Bring ink, and ask vintage vendors to allow you to dip the
pens. Bring something to wipe the nibs off too. You'll think you died
and went to heaven.

I'd love to go, but there doesn't appear to be much happening around
here. I'm in Austin, TX, and according to the calendar there's nothing
in Texas in the foreseeable future.

--
Be seeing you.

Susan Wirth's booth at the NYC show was a sampler's delight.
All kinds of pens with pads to test them on.
Even my wife, a disinterested attendee there only to keep me
company, got hooked at her booth.

And if you become obsessed with vintage, shows are where you
find the specialists who maintain them.

JP


"Nancy Handy" wrote in message
.. .
Thore Karlsen wrote:

I'm a little torn on what to get. I'm new to fountain pens, so I haven't
been able to try a lot of different nibs..... and I would definitely
like
to try something with a bit more line variation.

On one hand, I don't want to buy a lot of pens that aren't right for
me,... Vintage is another option (especially to check out flex nibs),
but
I'm not sure where the best place would be to go for those.

If ever there was someone who needed to go to a pen show, it's you.
Look on Susan Wirth's site and check out if there are any pen shows
coming to a town near you sometime soon. Seriously, you need to go to
a pen show! Bring ink, and ask vintage vendors to allow you to dip the
pens. Bring something to wipe the nibs off too. You'll think you died
and went to heaven.

Nancy

Another thought -

check out James Pickering's Practical Italic Handwriting pages.
http://www.jp29.org/cadr.htm

it really doesn't take a huge amount of effort to improve your handwriting -
just a little time on a regular basis. I can write beautifully - or i can
write such that it is even more messy than the sample provided (which I felt
wasn't "nasty" at all - but definitely crowded and uncomfortable to read.)
Illegible? I think that's a bit strong but then again, I have to decipher
my brother's scribble. Yikes! I have to say I don't know if the images in
some of the samples were at original size - if so, then there is a problem.
But I gave the writer the benefit of the doubt because most people don't
write quite that small. I can, but don't usually (anymore :P )

Don't be thrown by "italics" either - the same concepts can be applied to
any standard nib as well as edged nibs.

I wonder though if your handwriting actually has deteriorated and you don't
notice it (because, hey, it's your handwriting) or if people who are aware
of the pens you use now are just more prone to complaining because *they*
believe that the FP is the problem. They might not have considered
complaining when you used BPs. There are people who are biased against FPs
because they view them as pretentious. And there are people who have
complained to me about how they think it's atrocious when an FP user *can't*
write beautifully - i find that elitist on the FP user side. Just some
thoughts.

i haven't read all the responses so if I repeated anything (other than my
own words which I often repeat) then my apologies.
kcat

right (only because I'd forced my hand into a painful arc) was (while in
itself a disgraceful failure) infinitely preferable to what I then
perceived as clear, legible handwriting which sloped to the left. I've
been trying to find something that works for me _and_ other people ever
since.

Sorry about the little rant.

Rant was well-founded. My daughter probably would be left-handed or at the
least, ambidextrous. She naturally picked up writing instruments in her
left hand and even in 1990 teachers were still grabbing crayons out of left
hands and shoving them into right hands. grrrr...

as a result, my daughter writes with her right hand but turns the paper
"parallel" to the plane of her body and curls her right hand around in what
would appear to be an excruciating position. But her handwriting is much
neater than mine will ever be. :P

"Bluesea" wrote

As to the angle, you said that you use a different angle when using a fp
than when you use a bp. The angle at which I hold a writing instrument
doesn't change depending on the instrument whether it be a fp, bp, or
pencil. Being nearly vertical, an angle of 85 degrees seems rather extreme
anyway.

I think it was intended to sound extreme. my angle of attack is definitely
different with FPs than with pencils or bps. I think, in my case, I feel
that at a higher angle, the pressure to apply pencil/bp to paper is easier
accomplished without straining the hand too much. And with a pencil
especially - a lower angle such as that used by most of the FP users I've
seen would be awkward. I define "most" as the angle on Richard Binder's
forms for customizing pens.