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Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
FROM:
http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-mo...-millions/768/ Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions By Kathy Kristof Oct 12, 2009 Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions buying what they believe are rare coins, but they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made counterfeits. (fake 1916-D dime, front) http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...attachment_776 (fake 1916-D dime, back) http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...attachment_777 More than a million counterfeit coins manufactured in China have been fraudulently sold in the U.S., according to Coin World, a respected industry publication. Some of these were peddled as "replicas" but they were manufactured without the requisite "copy" stamp. Roughly 99% of the replicas produced in China don't contain the "copy" marking that' required by the U.S. Hobby Protection Act, which is aimed at warning consumers that they're getting a mass-produced replica rather than the original, according to Coin World. As a result, it's easy to resell these coins at flea markets, swap meets and through Internet auctions, without giving the buyer any inkling that the coins could be fakes. "Millions of dollars already have been spent on these fakes and potentially millions more may be unwittingly lost by consumers who mistakenly think they are getting a genuine rare coin," said Paul Montgomery, president of the Professional Numismatists Guild. How big of a difference does it make? A genuine 1916-D dime sells for about $700, but a replica can be had for $21. "Generally the replicas being sold have zero commercial value," Scott Schechter, vice president for the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. told me in an interview. "Most people are looking at a total loss." Consumers may be particularly vulnerable at a time when precious metal prices are hitting all-time highs, largely because consumers have become nervous about traditional investments such as stock and bonds, as well as the rapidly declining value of the U.S. dollar. Roughly $5 billion in rare coins are sold each year, even in the midst of today's recession. In a joint release issued by the American Numismatic Association, the Industry Council for Tangible Assets, the Professional Numismatists Guild, the Numismatic Guaranty Corp., and the Professional Coin Grading Service, the groups urged consumers to research before they buy and restrict their purchases to reputable companies that they have reason to trust. If you are tempted to buy at a flea market or online, you may want to check out the coin with authentication companies such as the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. or the Professional Coin Grading Service. The Professional Numismatists Guild will also provide a copy of its booklet, "What You Should Know Before You Buy Rare Coins," for $1 if you send a request to them at 3950 Concordia Lane, Fallbrook, CA 92028. ... |
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Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
Arizona Coin Collector wrote:
FROM: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-mo...-millions/768/ Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions By Kathy Kristof Oct 12, 2009 Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions buying what they believe are rare coins, but they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made counterfeits. (fake 1916-D dime, front) http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...attachment_776 (fake 1916-D dime, back) http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...attachment_777 More than a million counterfeit coins manufactured in China have been fraudulently sold in the U.S., according to Coin World, a respected industry publication. Some of these were peddled as "replicas" but they were manufactured without the requisite "copy" stamp. Roughly 99% of the replicas produced in China don't contain the "copy" marking that' required by the U.S. Hobby Protection Act, which is aimed at warning consumers that they're getting a mass-produced replica rather than the original, according to Coin World. As a result, it's easy to resell these coins at flea markets, swap meets and through Internet auctions, without giving the buyer any inkling that the coins could be fakes. "Millions of dollars already have been spent on these fakes and potentially millions more may be unwittingly lost by consumers who mistakenly think they are getting a genuine rare coin," said Paul Montgomery, president of the Professional Numismatists Guild. How big of a difference does it make? A genuine 1916-D dime sells for about $700, but a replica can be had for $21. "Generally the replicas being sold have zero commercial value," Scott Schechter, vice president for the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. told me in an interview. "Most people are looking at a total loss." Consumers may be particularly vulnerable at a time when precious metal prices are hitting all-time highs, largely because consumers have become nervous about traditional investments such as stock and bonds, as well as the rapidly declining value of the U.S. dollar. Roughly $5 billion in rare coins are sold each year, even in the midst of today's recession. In a joint release issued by the American Numismatic Association, the Industry Council for Tangible Assets, the Professional Numismatists Guild, the Numismatic Guaranty Corp., and the Professional Coin Grading Service, the groups urged consumers to research before they buy and restrict their purchases to reputable companies that they have reason to trust. If you are tempted to buy at a flea market or online, you may want to check out the coin with authentication companies such as the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. or the Professional Coin Grading Service. Unfortunately, unless the coin is already in an acceptable slab, the burden of authentication is on the buyer after he has paid for and taken possession of the coin. By then the seller is long gone. James the Wary |
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Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
Mr. Jaggers lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
Unfortunately, unless the coin is already in an acceptable slab, the burden of authentication is on the buyer after he has paid for and taken possession of the coin. By then the seller is long gone. James the Wary Hi James, Chinese fakes seem to vary from low quality stuff which wouldn't fool anyone with a clue to high quality stuff which will fool some experts some of the time. I know that I've seen low quality fakes at flea markets, but I have no idea if I've seen any of the high end Chinese fakes. How common are the high quality fakes now? It used to be claimed that one was fairly safe buying from respectable dealers. I've never bought a certified coin. I collect world coins and those of Canada (my own country) and rarely buy anything expensive, and I count $50 a coin as expensive on my budget. Peter. -- Peter. |
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Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
Peter Irwin wrote:
Mr. Jaggers lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote: Unfortunately, unless the coin is already in an acceptable slab, the burden of authentication is on the buyer after he has paid for and taken possession of the coin. By then the seller is long gone. James the Wary Hi James, Chinese fakes seem to vary from low quality stuff which wouldn't fool anyone with a clue to high quality stuff which will fool some experts some of the time. I know that I've seen low quality fakes at flea markets, but I have no idea if I've seen any of the high end Chinese fakes. As mentioned in the material cited by the OP, *all* of the fakes being offered as bearing a "REPLICA" counterstamp started out without the counterstamp. Win one of these in an online auction, and the seller will likely contact you and offer you an example without the counterstamp at no extra charge. Thus is a mechanism set up for these things to be vectored by all sorts of unscrupulous sellers, even some from the U.S. and Canada. How common are the high quality fakes now? They are disturbingly common, and a few have made their way into respectable slabs. Even more have made their way into fake slabs. One way that I can tell is by seeing offerings that are way out of proportion to their known rarity. If all of a sudden we see regular offerings of coins from Gold Coast, the 19th century speciedalers from Norway, or the silver crown from Zanzibar, just to name a few, we can be reasonably sure they are all fake. It used to be claimed that one was fairly safe buying from respectable dealers. I've never bought a certified coin. I collect world coins and those of Canada (my own country) and rarely buy anything expensive, and I count $50 a coin as expensive on my budget. It's literally a minefield out there, Peter, but mostly for the more expensive coins, much less so for the $50 and under collectible coins. It still is incumbent upon you, the collector, to have at least a working familiarity with what genuine coins look like, and that's not at all easy with those from quite a few countries. Your best bet, as you suggest, is still to buy from knowledgeable dealers, and if it's a rarity at all, buy only if the coin has been authenticated by PCGS or NGC. Peace of mind knows no price. James |
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Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
Mr. Jaggers lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
It's literally a minefield out there, Peter, but mostly for the more expensive coins, much less so for the $50 and under collectible coins. It still is incumbent upon you, the collector, to have at least a working familiarity with what genuine coins look like, and that's not at all easy with those from quite a few countries. My main collection is 5 cent (including 5 pfennig, 5 kopeks etc) denomination world coins. There are more than a few in my collection where I have not seen any others of that type. As it happens, the majority of these were inexpensive enough to make forgery uneconomic, but this isn't always the case. Some of the Mexican Revolution regional 5 centavos were said to exist as forgeries or unmarked replicas even before the current influx of Chinese fakes, and the same goes for my Chinese Soviet 5 cents. My only source of confidence comes from my belief that the dealers who sold them to me were both honest and competent. Your best bet, as you suggest, is still to buy from knowledgeable dealers, That would seem to be an essential matter of policy. Before eBay, proper coin dealers were the only practical source, apart from relatives and circulation finds, for adding to a collection. I haven't gone to eBay for coins partly because I see that most auctions seem to be by people who do not know how to accurately describe what they are selling, and partly because the shipping on a single coin tends to raise the price of a moderately priced coin so as to make it uncompetitive with what a dealer would charge. and if it's a rarity at all I don't think I have any actual rarities as coin collectors understand the term. I have some coins which I have only seen once on Frank Robinson's list in the past decade, and never on Bob Reis' list or at my local dealer, or at coin shows. The same goes for some coins at each of the other sources never appearing anywhere else. Peter. -- |
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Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
Do not miss the bigger picture, miss the forest for the trees.
Nothing is being done because the Peoples Republic of China is able to hold the enforcement authorities of the United States of America at bay, bulwarked by over A TRILLION DOLLARS in US Government (and corporate) Debt held by the PRC government. These fakes are productive work for people whose per capita income is $4,000 to $6,000 per year (CIA World Factbook). And that's the average. Half make less. Weighted averages say that more than half make still less, the mean being bouyed by the earners at the top. If you have not seen this video, pay close attention to the details of the place. http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins...rfeiting-Ring/ These fakes only harm rich Americas tossing out disposable income. It is not like poison toothpaste or even poison dog food. Technically, no one is getting hurt -- at least that's how the Chinese see it. In Philip K. Dick's THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE, America lost World War II. The East Coast and South are under the Germans. The West Coast is occupied by Japan. The Rockies are still open. Life is not so bad in San Francisco. The Japanese are consumers. They love Americana and pay the big bucks for Frontier Artifacts ... most of which are made anew in the Rockies... Same theory the Chinese operate under today... Now, truly, we here see the problem differently. Susan Headley is not alone in testing the ability of professional numismatists to cull the goats from the sheep. These fakes harm the market generally, and literally and specifically and unarguably cheat the buyer, depriving the buyer of the benefit of the bargain, a clear fraud, destructive of savings, and thus destructive of time spent earning. Theft is murder writ small. But, again, the USA Government in Washington is powerless because the PRC Government in Beijing holds the IOUs. On the other hand, when I gave my talk on Counterfeits at the ANA in Pittsburgh, I got a statement from an FBI public relations specialist that Chinese counterfeiters were beheaded -- for making fake US Currency, i.e, real money. That is something the American government acts on. Collectors getting ripped off is a lesser problem to them, not worth the cost of China's disapproval. Handwringing by the PNG, ANA and ICTA will not change the geopolitical situation. Realpolitik is real politics. A is A Mike M. Michael E. Marotta "Objectively concerned." |
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Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
Mike Marotta wrote:
Do not miss the bigger picture, miss the forest for the trees. Nothing is being done because the Peoples Republic of China is able to hold the enforcement authorities of the United States of America at bay, bulwarked by over A TRILLION DOLLARS in US Government (and corporate) Debt held by the PRC government. These fakes are productive work for people whose per capita income is $4,000 to $6,000 per year (CIA World Factbook). And that's the average. Half make less. Weighted averages say that more than half make still less, the mean being bouyed by the earners at the top. If you have not seen this video, pay close attention to the details of the place. http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins...rfeiting-Ring/ These fakes only harm rich Americas tossing out disposable income. It is not like poison toothpaste or even poison dog food. Technically, no one is getting hurt -- at least that's how the Chinese see it. That's an interesting way to assess the phenomenon. Those same rich Americans might lose millions or billions in the stock market, attribute it all to so much "biz" and figure they can make it all back one day. Losing 100k on a fake 1796 half dollar pales by comparison, but denies the possibility of ever being made whole again, so in the mind it looms larger than other kinds of loss. As for me, I just hope my unslabbed F15 1926-S nickel is real. James the Optimistic |
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Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
On Oct 13, 9:49*am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
*As for me, I just hope my unslabbed F15 1926-S nickel is real. James the Optimistic- Hide quoted text - Naturally, I hope you are not disappointed. Even so, I still think a central question is why anyone would pay more for a collectible coin than the price the Chinese ask. Their best quality of coins are made on genuine presses that were used by the US mint. They can produce the same pressures, exactly. They have actual dies from the US mint and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with computer enhanced laser etching techniques. They have access to the genuine planchettes that the mint uses. If someone is collecting something, they often aim for the best available; is genuine really better? In fact, how is it different? As other posters remarked, labor in China is very cheap and this business is not illegal in China. If it is possible to find a difference between the Chinese product and the original coins, it seems almost certain that the Chinese will shortly improve their product so that there is not any longer a difference. |
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Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
A more alliterative title for this thread would have been "Counterfeit Coins
Cost Consumers Copious Cash". |
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Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions
"Peter" wrote in message ... They have actual dies from the US mint and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with computer enhanced laser etching techniques. IIRC the US Mint completely defaces all used dies. Unless those crafty Chinese have broken into the Mint vaults that is! |
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