Needed: Ink Recommendations for Sheaffer Nonsense Fountain Pen!

On Jun 9, 3:37*pm, MatthewK wrote:



I can't speak for the others but an hour spent googling the vp
will give you a couple of results. How great the pen is. Why
doesn't it work well with this ink, why doesn't it work well *
with this converter, why is it so noisy?

Do you think that may be partially to do with the fact that someone
that shells out $300 might have slightly higher expectations than
someone who puts out $14.95?


The cheapest I've seen a new vp is $88-$160. I expect a pen
that costly to work without a hitch but the rest of the market
is satisfied with poor engineering and materials.

OK, if you buy a $7 parker and it doesn't write well, how many forums
are you going to run to in order to post your bad experience? Again,
expectations are higher in the upper price ranges, people will work
harder to get them fixed/replaced, disappointment runs deeper, and
forum posts increase. That does not mean people are satisfied with
poor engineering, not a bit. It means that you find more posts because
people paid more.

How many posts do you read that say "Just bought a VP and it works
fine"


I think pilot is the wrong brand to discuss, because to a
certain extent their pens seem to all be very similar
in terms of hardware regardless of price. How many nib/feed
assemblies do the manufacture? Anyone know?

In the higher end, they have a whole bunch of different mechanisms,
including a plunger (823) and a piston (845). They also have
eyedroppers, etc. The workmanship on Japanese pens, in my experience,
is fantastic, particularly Pilots and Sailors.


As a rule of thumb I think $40 bucks or less is what newbies
should here. I didn't mean to apply that to all situations.

You don't get a gold nib less than $75, and that is a different
writing experience than a steel nib. Just because you are a newbie
doesn't mean you have to settle for a steel nib.


To me, it is simple marketing. Just restricting ourselves to
japanese makers what is more likely to write flawlessly out of
the box, a namiki vp or a platinum preppy?

What would write better out of the box, a pelikano or something
in the $400 dollar range?

What does write "better" mean? If you are asking me what feels better
for me to write with, an Omas Paragon or a Pelikano, I would answer it
after I got done laughing.


A company can "eat it" on 100 $400 dollar pens but not a
million $10 dollar pens. If school pens were bad writers many
of the pen companies would have been out of business fast.




That is
not to be taken literally but it seems once you get to the $100
dollar mark, bad things start happening.

Yes, please don't take that literally because literally none of my several
$100 pens ever gave me a poor experience. Zero. Zip. Zilch. They were love
affairs right out of the box as soon as they were inked and write better
than the $100 pens. However, I believe that's because their gold nibs give
a better experience overall than do steel nibs rather than it being an issue
of not writing on demand.

Gold nibs being better? That is surely personal bias. I think
your lucky to have had no problems. There really aren't many
production pens that don't need adjusting out of the box. The
cheap ones have statistical quality controll going for them as
well as gross economics.


I'm curious about how cheap ones have statistical quality controls
that more expensive ones don't have? Because they make more, that
means they are better quality? Well, not really.

It is true that in the upper end fountain pens, there are a lot of
hand made components, and yes, handmade components aren't as likely to
be as consistent as machine made components. But this is why we have
pen retailers - we sit in front of our pen retailer, we fill the pen
with ink, we try the pen before we buy it, the retailer makes
adjustments (well a good retailer anyway).

My personal taste takes me to pens generally in the $200+ range
(although I haven't bought a modern pen in a while, I prefer vintage)
- I like the size of a large pen, and a large gold nib. I prefer
piston filling systems. I've had one pen not work for me, and I've had
to adjust the flow of ink to my liking in a few. But I'm not with you
on the notion that a $40 pen writes better than a $400 pen just....
because it does.

"titanic cruise? I think not; much safer on a ruby yacht"
wrote in message
...
FOOEY!!

I spilled ink on my computer. Will I have asdf creep?

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it'll be the qwerty creep.


--
~~Bluesea~~
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"The Drunken Lord" wrote in message
...

I agree with your basic idea, that cheap pens are just as good.

Yes. "You get what you pay for" does not apply to fps as far as basic
performance, does-it-work, goes.

Thing
is, I don't have any $2,000 pens around here to compare them with.

But, aren't $2,000 pens classified as collectibles? Since collectibles
aren't intended to be used, it isn't fair to compare how well they perform
out of the box to daily writers.

I
do have a duofold, and I don't know how much that is worth. It has a
gold nib and writes maybe--not really sure--maybe better, a little
better--smoother or something--but like I said, if I were blindfolded,
I don't know that I'd know the difference between that pen and a
Phileas.

Since what touches paper is the tipping material, gold doesn't play as a
factor when we talk about smoothness.

The thing about gold nibs for me is that they're not as rigid as stainless
steel nibs. I think gold nibs give a more enjoyable writing experience, but
I don't dare use one in my checkbook because of needing to press to make the
copy. That job is for my steel nibs.

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~~Bluesea~~
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"MatthewK" wrote in message
...
On 2008-06-09, Bluesea wrote:

"MatthewK" wrote in message
...

A 329 writes when you want it to whereas a new $400 dollar pen
does not.

Please be careful about generalizing. Do you really mean that there
aren't
ANY $400 pens that write when you want? Do you have the knowledge and
experience to back up that statement?

(The 329 was used as an example because hero was mentioned. A
329 from one of the good dealers writes better out of the box
than most anything else IMO.)

It doesn't matter that you're using a Hero for your example. My squawk is
about "a new $400 dollar pen does not." That's misleadingly unequivocal.

Of course not. Do you have the knowledge or experience to argue
against it? My informal survey of penmiesters seems to
suggest this to be true.

While I don't own any Heroes or any pens that cost over $400, which two
points alone might disqualify me, I do have over 100 fps, maybe over
150 by now. Combine my personal experience with what I've learned from
various places over the years as well as from here.

I think others cvan back this up: If you want a good
write then don't pay over $40 bucks for a modern pen.

I won't because that's much too low. Some of my favorite pens, Namiki
Falcon, Namiki Vanishing Point, Parker Sonnet, Pilot Ecrino, & Sailor
1911M,
retail for $60 - $170. My first Cross ATX cost $42. If I followed your
rule,
I would have missed out especially since the Falcon, which retails at
$170
and cost me over $100, is still my #1 favorite over all the rest.

I can't speak for the others but an hour spent googling the vp
will give you a couple of results. How great the pen is. Why
doesn't it work well with this ink, why doesn't it work well
with this converter, why is it so noisy?

I definitely fall in the "how great the pen is" category.

Is that all you got after an hour of googling? I don't know what exactly was
going on, of course, but off the top, those "why" complaints sound like they
came from complete noobs, whiners, or idiots. IMO, newbies are to be helped
and tolerated because everyone was a newbie when they first started and it's
only right to return the favor of being helped when you were a newbie by
helping someone else learn the ropes. Whiners are to be slapped upside the
head, but since we're online and physically incapable of doing so, ignored.
Idiots, like trolls, may be played with but are best ignored.

Noisy?! For this one I want to say, "WTF?" Could the user not tolerate the
clicking sound of the push-button or the scritch-scritch of writing?
Whatever.

Ink - different pens often write differently with different inks.

Converter...shrug. AFAIK, there are two converters and they both worked
fine for me. I switched to refilling cartridges simply because carts hold
more ink and let me see the amount of ink remaining.

The cheapest I've seen a new vp is $88-$160. I expect a pen
that costly to work without a hitch but the rest of the market
is satisfied with poor engineering and materials.

There you go generalizing, again. "I expect...but the rest of the market
is..." Gee, thanks a lot for pointing out that I and everyone else who
enjoys a VP must surely be "satisfied with poor engineering and materials."

FWIW, no matter how much a VP costs, the nib units are easily
interchangeable and may be had for only about $25, depending on
where it's bought. All one has to do is unscrew the barrel and slide out the
nib unit. It's the same piece where the cartridge/converter is inserted.
Isn't the economical advantage of having three nib widths and buying only
one expensive pen, a plus?

I usually use a fine nib unit, but occasionally switch to the medium.
Both worked great from the start without a hitch.

I think pilot is the wrong brand to discuss, because to a
certain extent their pens seem to all be very similar
in terms of hardware regardless of price. How many nib/feed
assemblies do the manufacture? Anyone know?

Considering that Namiki and Pilot are the same company and that Cross uses
Namiki nibs (and Pelikan), and they make steel nibs and plated nibs and gold
nibs, the answer is "lots."

Namiki/Pilot may be the wrong brand to discuss because they and other
Japanese pen companies have superior quality. Same goes for other companies
such as Pelikan and... um...Waterman... and...um...

As a rule of thumb I think $40 bucks or less is what newbies
should here. I didn't mean to apply that to all situations.

Thank you for qualifying your original statement. I agree that a newbie is
likely wiser to start with a less expensive pen simply because of having
to get used to the fp experience. If it doesn't work out and the user goes
back to bps or rbs, s/he isn't out as much money.

To me, it is simple marketing.

Marketing? Bwahahaha!

While that may be true of Montblanc...

Just restricting ourselves to
japanese makers what is more likely to write flawlessly out of
the box, a namiki vp or a platinum preppy?

In my experience, both are great pens. Neither performed better "out of the
box" than the other.

What would write better out of the box, a pelikano or something
in the $400 dollar range?

Although I don't have any $400 pens, from my experience with Pelikans at
various price points, I'd say either. I have a Pelikano, a Future, an
Epoch 360, and an M400 and they all worked great from the get-go.

Now, if you want to compare a Pelikano with a $400 pen from a company that
doesn't have the golden reputation that Pelikan has...

That is
not to be taken literally but it seems once you get to the $100
dollar mark, bad things start happening.

Yes, please don't take that literally because literally none of my
several
$100 pens ever gave me a poor experience. Zero. Zip. Zilch. They were
love
affairs right out of the box as soon as they were inked and write better
than the $100 pens. However, I believe that's because their gold nibs
give
a better experience overall than do steel nibs rather than it being an
issue
of not writing on demand.

Gold nibs being better? That is surely personal bias.

Please carefully reread what I wrote.

I think
your lucky to have had no problems. There really aren't many
production pens that don't need adjusting out of the box.

Oh, really? How do you know this to be a fact? Is it possible that you know
about the complaints and not the satisfied customers merely because people
are more vocal when they're unhappy and tend to silently go on with their
lives when they're satisfied?

As I posted above, I have over 100 fps, maybe over 150. While I don't have
any that cost over $400, I've definitely gone well over your $40 ceiling.
They all worked great from the start*. Indeed, it wasn't until I came to
this group that I learned that some people have problems with new pens. Is
it because I shop carefully? I like to think so. Am I lucky? Yes, definitely
(long story & OT).

* My latest pens are Kaweco Sports that cost $15 to $20. These are the first
with which I've had any problems whatsoever and after I washed the nib
sections in a solution of dishwashing liquid and water, they, too, were
great. No adjustments needed.

While I agree that user pens perform better than pens meant to be
collectibles, your price range is much too narrow. I say that excellent
writers can be had for $3 - $300; pens such as the larger Pelikans or the
Omas 360, which some may need for comfort, being the exceptions. There
should be others that I don't know about.

Compare all the $100+ plus pens to what they were 40 years ago
and I think my point rings true.

No, because you were comparing modern pens only, under $40 and over $100. To
bring in older pens at this point is a digression and I'm not following you
there.

For better or worse, Frank is one of my pen heros. His old
postings as well as others led me to believe my statements are
correct.

Good for you. FWIW, I was here during his final years and while he was
undoubtedly right about many things pertaining to pens and ink, he didn't
know it all when it came to modern pens. For you to mount a soapbox without
having his background or the experience that many of the longer-habitués of
acpp have is a precarious stand to assume. OTOH, by sticking to what you
know from personal experience, I'm confident that it'll be impossible for
someone to dislodge a soapbox out from under you.

--
~~Bluesea~~
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Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"MatthewK" wrote in message
...
On 2008-06-09, Bluesea wrote:

Thanks for helping me clarify my thoughts.

You're welcome. Discussion helps me, too.

Your last statement
about great pens from $3- $300(?) dollars is a good
generalization.

Isn't the thought of shelling out $300 for a single pen alarming? It chokes
me. Yet, I have to be realistic - there are people who don't think twice
about dropping that kind of dough on a good user pen. Wait 'til you're out
of school and can afford a pen that costs over $40 .

I've been thinking that I should raise the high end to $400 because of
inflation.

--
~~Bluesea~~
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Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

In ,
MatthewK wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Brian Ketterling
wrote:
In ,
8-O With all due respect, Matthew, I hope no one has hired you as a
statistician.

Hmmm...what are you talking about? That opinion was purely
opinion. The only time I mentioned statistics was in quality
control terms.

Sorry, you're right. I was thinking in general of someone who forms an
empirical picture of reality.

I don't think I was wrong about "due respect" (so far all I've really seen
is a decent person), but your *post* seemed like a foggy mess of anecdotes
picked according to bias, suppositions to support those biases, and so on.

Being you chose to quote the part about my respect for Frank I
think something else is at play.

I was just bracketing a long post with its beginning and end.

Brian
--

On 2008-06-11, Brian Ketterling wrote:
In ,
MatthewK wrote:

On 2008-06-09, Brian Ketterling
wrote:
In ,
8-O With all due respect, Matthew, I hope no one has hired you as a
statistician.

Hmmm...what are you talking about? That opinion was purely
opinion. The only time I mentioned statistics was in quality
control terms.

Sorry, you're right. I was thinking in general of someone who forms an
empirical picture of reality.

I don't think I was wrong about "due respect" (so far all I've really seen
is a decent person), but your *post* seemed like a foggy mess of anecdotes
picked according to bias, suppositions to support those biases, and so on.

Thanks, and I think your right about me presenting most of
my opinions as "foggy". I've started summer session
classes...anatomy and chemistry. I've not been getting enough
rest so just about everything I say/write is cloudy. Even so, I
really ought to proof read my posts a few times for the sake of
accuracy. Atleast that way, when disagreements arise there can
.....the funny thing about all this is I've been making an
attempt to study the trivium lately. lol

Anything "bad" that has happened to me in any thread I post
here is because of lack of clarity on my part.

matthew

p.s. I'll post reply/response to everyones replies later this
week.

Inspiring Discovery wrote:
My personal taste takes me to pens generally in the $200+ range
(although I haven't bought a modern pen in a while, I prefer vintage)
- I like the size of a large pen, and a large gold nib. I prefer
piston filling systems. I've had one pen not work for me, and I've had
to adjust the flow of ink to my liking in a few. But I'm not with you
on the notion that a $40 pen writes better than a $400 pen just....
because it does.

Mine definitely runs in the $200-500 (street price) range.

Typical pens in my preferred price range that I own one or more of:

Stipula Etruria
Stipula Ventidue
Stipula Novecento
Visconti Van Gogh
Visconti Opera Club
Pelikan M600 series

In the "Pens under $200" category, there's really only a few I'm
satisfied enough with to buy more of:

Stipula Vedo
Aurora Ipsilon
Namiki Vanishing Point
Pilot Custom 98

--
_Deirdre web: http://deirdre.net blog: http://dsmoen.livejournal.com/
"Memes are a hoax! Pass it on!"

"Bluesea" wrote in message
...

snipped

Isn't the thought of shelling out $300 for a single pen alarming? It
chokes
me. Yet, I have to be realistic - there are people who don't think twice
about dropping that kind of dough on a good user pen. Wait 'til you're out
of school and can afford a pen that costs over $40 .

I've been thinking that I should raise the high end to $400 because of
inflation.


$300 for a writing utensil is alarming.
$300 for a fetish object is OK.
If I'm away from my desk taking notes I use a mechanical pencil.
If I'm at my desk I can play with my fountain pens.
Giant inkspots in my books show where a newly purchased old pen
finally showed it's real defect. Hours are spent soaking and rinsing
so pens can be rotated. Enough ink for my grandchildren to waste
is stored in the closet, colors I don't use nor like along with several
quarts
black, Pelican, Aurora and Noodlers which I have found to be the blackest
of the blacks.

This for writing? I doubt it. I have fine nib Waterman 12 eyedropper,
nearly as reliable as a pencil (until the ink level gets really low and the
heat from my hand expands the air in the barrel enough to make the pen drip)
why then do I need the other 35, oh and that doesn't count the desk pens,
the Safaris, the esterbrook inkwell and pen combos, the esterbrook fountain
pens,
the dozens of esterbrook nibs, the few accumulating in my desk to send out
for
repair, and the 7 pens I haven't gotten back from Richard yet.

Lately though the urge hit me and I started cruising ebay again. I always
figure a pens
going to need $40 in repairs, put my handbook on my lap, scan for
Waterman,
Conklin, Mabie Todd, old Parkers, plant my bids and forget them. But I
need to
accumulate more 100 year old junk to send out to be repaired so I can rarely
or
never use it. And I don't consider myself a collector.

I'd call it a fetish.

JP

In news:6GQ4k.4276$Mu.3856@trndny07,
JP wrote:

$300 for a writing utensil is alarming.
$300 for a fetish object is OK.

Lately though the urge hit me and I started cruising ebay again...
I need to accumulate more 100 year old junk to send out to be repaired so
I
can rarely or never use it. And I don't consider myself a collector.

I'd call it a fetish.

Sounds more like a compulsion to /buy/ pens than an obsession with pens
themselves. If they don't hold your interest for long, then maybe all the
cleaning and rotating is your conscience telling you that you should do
something with them ( -- and at this point I'll add the inevitable "send
them to ME!").

Brian
--