Question regarding paper

I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk surfaced
paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot.
Simple.

Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Will the black spot be
permanent? Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary'
or 'chalk surfaced'?

To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the chalk
surface can be washed away.

So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced
papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious.

Alfred Lee

A much easier way I find is to bring the paper to your lips & gently rub
slightly - the chalk surfaced paper will feel colder (& smoother) than the
ordinary paper.

Obviously with dry lips & try it on some inexpensive stamps first !

Regards,
Nick


"Alfred Lee" wrote in
:

I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk
surfaced paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a
black spot. Simple.

Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Will the black spot be
permanent? Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is
'ordinary' or 'chalk surfaced'?

To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the
chalk surface can be washed away.

So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced
papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious.

Alfred Lee

Alfred,

this chalky business dates from the prehistory of our stamps; most stamps
- commemoratives in particular - have been printed on coated paper since
the 1930-ies; since 1960 hardly any stamp has been without! For the
coating several substances could have been used of which "chalk" is just
one of them and not necessary the most interesting. It just happened that
some philatelists and catalogue makers loved to over-emphasize this
chalky-business.....

"Ordinary" paper is supposed to be paper without coating and it is
usually not shiny at all. But if uncoated paper got calandered {brushed up
like shoes without using polish] it may seem to have a coating. It takes
specialists to see the difference between a well calandered [satinized]
paper and a paper with a thin coating. The would-be specialists of the
early 20th century catalogue have long been extinct So do not bother
and do not destroy your precious stamps!

Rein

Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 04:28:09 +0200 schreef Alfred Lee
:

I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk
surfaced
paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot.
Simple.

Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Will the black spot be
permanent? Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is
'ordinary'
or 'chalk surfaced'?

To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the chalk
surface can be washed away.

So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced
papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious.

Alfred Lee






--
Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma:
http://www.opera.com/mail/

Be happy that your bull's eyes aren't chalky!

Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:26:55 +0200 schreef Sir F. A. Rien
:

Two words on your 'advice' ... B.S.

Rein found these unused words:

Alfred,

this chalky business dates from the prehistory of our stamps; most
stamps
- commemoratives in particular - have been printed on coated paper since
the 1930-ies; since 1960 hardly any stamp has been without! For the
coating several substances could have been used of which "chalk" is just
one of them and not necessary the most interesting. It just happened
that
some philatelists and catalogue makers loved to over-emphasize this
chalky-business.....

"Ordinary" paper is supposed to be paper without coating and it is
usually not shiny at all. But if uncoated paper got calandered {brushed
up
like shoes without using polish] it may seem to have a coating. It takes
specialists to see the difference between a well calandered [satinized]
paper and a paper with a thin coating. The would-be specialists of the
early 20th century catalogue have long been extinct So do not bother
and do not destroy your precious stamps!

Rein

Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 04:28:09 +0200 schreef Alfred Lee
:

I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk
surfaced
paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot.
Simple.

Problem is, where can i find a silver wire? Will the black spot be
permanent? Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is
'ordinary'
or 'chalk surfaced'?

To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the
chalk
surface can be washed away.

So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced
papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious.

Alfred Lee







--
Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma:
http://www.opera.com/mail/

Goodness Gracious!

Does this all happen in the E.R.????

Supervised by our Sir Doctor?

Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:42:28 +0200 schreef Sir F. A. Rien
:

"Alfred Lee" found these unused words:

I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk
surfaced
paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot.
Simple.

Problem is, where can i find a silver wire?
Use a small piece from a roll of 'Silver Solder' [good] or buy some from
a
jeweller [best].

I took 1/8" dowls, drilled a tiny hole in the end and then bent a 3/4"
loop
of silver wire, placing the ends into the hole with a drop of crazy glue.
Wipe the silver with denatured isopropyl upon completion.

That way only the rounded end touches the stamp and just the lightest
touch
will leave a 'grey' line. You hand oils don't transfer to the silver and
to
the stamp from handling the wire directly.

Will the black spot be permanent?
A very soft artist or draughtsman's eraser will remove it easily if you
make
the mark in the 'white' margin, not within the design.

Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary'
or 'chalk surfaced'?
Some claim that there's a subtle difference when see under black light.

Some also claim on 30x magnification to be able to 'see' the chalking
surface.

To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the chalk
surface can be washed away.
Yes, but so will the design as it's printed ON the surface. Some of the
inks
are fugitive, so take care.

Think about using a 'Stamp Lift' or 'sweat box'. easily made from a
plastic
box with tight fitting lid.

A sponge filling the bottomhalf, a plastic grille next and stamps laid
face
up on top. The paper adsorbs the water and can be 'slid' off the stamp.

So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced
papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious.
It's advisable not to touch any stamp if possible. Hand oils can
transfer to
the paper.

Understanding the finer points are well worth the effort if you aim for a
full understanding of the stamp making process and development.

If not, then Smilies and Tuvalu would be better.

How about plating?




--
Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma:
http://www.opera.com/mail/

Guys guys,

I had a problem, and I am greatly thankful to Sir FA Rien, for his help. It
has been very informative, and I will definitely be on my way to classify my
collection.

The prices for ordinary and chalk-surfaced can sometimes be 100 times
different. It separates the wheat from the chaff. So, it is important for me
to know, both for financial and knowledge reasons.

Anyone can have their point of view, and sometimes they say things they
shouldnt have. Thats why I always say nothing, if I have nothing good to
say.

If we call ourselves philatelists, we should endeavor to understand every
process and detail where possible. Otherwise, we should just collect Disney
or smilies or Tuvalu like Sir suggested.

Thanks again to all my fellow philatelists.

Alfred

"Sir F. A. Rien" wrote in message
...
Well, it's better than telling someone not to bother with details of
paper,
inks and collecting!

Kirk Splaat

Rein found these unused words:

Goodness Gracious!

Does this all happen in the E.R.????

Supervised by our Sir Doctor?

Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:42:28 +0200 schreef Sir F. A. Rien
:

"Alfred Lee" found these unused words:

I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk
surfaced
paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot.
Simple.

Problem is, where can i find a silver wire?
Use a small piece from a roll of 'Silver Solder' [good] or buy some from
a
jeweller [best].

I took 1/8" dowls, drilled a tiny hole in the end and then bent a 3/4"
loop
of silver wire, placing the ends into the hole with a drop of crazy
glue.
Wipe the silver with denatured isopropyl upon completion.

That way only the rounded end touches the stamp and just the lightest
touch
will leave a 'grey' line. You hand oils don't transfer to the silver and
to
the stamp from handling the wire directly.

Will the black spot be permanent?
A very soft artist or draughtsman's eraser will remove it easily if you
make
the mark in the 'white' margin, not within the design.

Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary'
or 'chalk surfaced'?
Some claim that there's a subtle difference when see under black light.

Some also claim on 30x magnification to be able to 'see' the chalking
surface.

To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the
chalk
surface can be washed away.
Yes, but so will the design as it's printed ON the surface. Some of the
inks
are fugitive, so take care.

Think about using a 'Stamp Lift' or 'sweat box'. easily made from a
plastic
box with tight fitting lid.

A sponge filling the bottomhalf, a plastic grille next and stamps laid
face
up on top. The paper adsorbs the water and can be 'slid' off the stamp.

So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk surfaced
papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious.
It's advisable not to touch any stamp if possible. Hand oils can
transfer to
the paper.

Understanding the finer points are well worth the effort if you aim for
a
full understanding of the stamp making process and development.

If not, then Smilies and Tuvalu would be better.

How about plating?

Alfred,

http://foro.filateliaargentina.com.a...p?f=139&t=3729

yours, Rein

Op Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:28:29 +0200 schreef Alfred Lee
:

Guys guys,

I had a problem, and I am greatly thankful to Sir FA Rien, for his help.
It
has been very informative, and I will definitely be on my way to
classify my
collection.

The prices for ordinary and chalk-surfaced can sometimes be 100 times
different. It separates the wheat from the chaff. So, it is important
for me
to know, both for financial and knowledge reasons.

Anyone can have their point of view, and sometimes they say things they
shouldnt have. Thats why I always say nothing, if I have nothing good to
say.

If we call ourselves philatelists, we should endeavor to understand every
process and detail where possible. Otherwise, we should just collect
Disney
or smilies or Tuvalu like Sir suggested.

Thanks again to all my fellow philatelists.

Alfred

"Sir F. A. Rien" wrote in message
...
Well, it's better than telling someone not to bother with details of
paper,
inks and collecting!

Kirk Splaat

Rein found these unused words:

Goodness Gracious!

Does this all happen in the E.R.????

Supervised by our Sir Doctor?

Op Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:42:28 +0200 schreef Sir F. A. Rien
:

"Alfred Lee" found these unused words:

I am told by the SG catalogue that to find out if a stamp is 'chalk
surfaced
paper', I just need to use a silver wire. And it leaves a black spot.
Simple.

Problem is, where can i find a silver wire?
Use a small piece from a roll of 'Silver Solder' [good] or buy some
from
a
jeweller [best].

I took 1/8" dowls, drilled a tiny hole in the end and then bent a 3/4"
loop
of silver wire, placing the ends into the hole with a drop of crazy
glue.
Wipe the silver with denatured isopropyl upon completion.

That way only the rounded end touches the stamp and just the lightest
touch
will leave a 'grey' line. You hand oils don't transfer to the silver
and
to
the stamp from handling the wire directly.

Will the black spot be permanent?
A very soft artist or draughtsman's eraser will remove it easily if
you
make
the mark in the 'white' margin, not within the design.

Is there any other way where i can check if a paper is 'ordinary'
or 'chalk surfaced'?
Some claim that there's a subtle difference when see under black
light.

Some also claim on 30x magnification to be able to 'see' the chalking
surface.

To make matters worse, I was also told that through immersion, the
chalk
surface can be washed away.
Yes, but so will the design as it's printed ON the surface. Some of
the
inks
are fugitive, so take care.

Think about using a 'Stamp Lift' or 'sweat box'. easily made from a
plastic
box with tight fitting lid.

A sponge filling the bottomhalf, a plastic grille next and stamps laid
face
up on top. The paper adsorbs the water and can be 'slid' off the
stamp.

So, is there other easier way, where I could 'feel' the chalk
surfaced
papers? Though it is not advisable to touch those precious.
It's advisable not to touch any stamp if possible. Hand oils can
transfer to
the paper.

Understanding the finer points are well worth the effort if you aim
for
a
full understanding of the stamp making process and development.

If not, then Smilies and Tuvalu would be better.

How about plating?







--
Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma:
http://www.opera.com/mail/

SOME (modern) chalky papers can be identified with a uv lamp - because
of other substances in the coating. For example the Buildings and
Celtic Artefacts series of Ireland. Try comparing known challky and
non-chalky examples of the same series under both long and short wave
uv to try to establish "control" copies.

Note that for some long term definitives there may be more than one
chalky and/or non-chalky paper used, and the test may work for some
and not the others ! I have not yet got to grips with the Birds of
Ireland as there appears to be a multiplicity of different papers
here.

Malcolm

Malcolm,

I have already - in some other thread - explained that we should stop
using the term "chalky" as it has got nothing to do anymore with our
romantic idea of using a silver stick or coin!

The stamp papers are coated and the coating may consist of various
substances that may be glossy or not, that may react under the UV-lamp or
not, etc...

You rightly point to the use of both long and short wave UV! It is not
enough to use only one!

I tried a silver coin and managed to get even a reaction on the reverse of
the stamps!!!!

http://foro.filateliaargentina.com.a...p?f=139&t=3729


groetjes, Rein

Op Sat, 01 May 2010 21:39:49 +0200 schreef malcolm
:



SOME (modern) chalky papers can be identified with a uv lamp - because
of other substances in the coating. For example the Buildings and
Celtic Artefacts series of Ireland. Try comparing known challky and
non-chalky examples of the same series under both long and short wave
uv to try to establish "control" copies.

Note that for some long term definitives there may be more than one
chalky and/or non-chalky paper used, and the test may work for some
and not the others ! I have not yet got to grips with the Birds of
Ireland as there appears to be a multiplicity of different papers
here.

Malcolm








--
Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma:
http://www.opera.com/mail/

Rein

I do agree. However as long as catalogues insist on using the term "
Chalky " I think we have to get to grips with this even if we do not
agree with the term.

The biggest and original usage, historically, appears to be the King
George V era of British Empire- as used in Stanley Gibbons catalogues
- and perhaps the term should be used for this particular case only. I
would agree with you that the use of the term appears to have become
somewhat abused as papers used today have no resemblance whatsoever
with those of that era.

I have not used the silver test personally on anything - as I would
only use it on the margins of a marginal copy - and never on the stamp
itself !!

Do believe me when I tell you that no UV test I have ever used can
differentiate between KG5 papers - and I am willing to believe that
the "silver" test is the only one which would work (scientifically).

I think that the only test which stands examination is to find a stamp
of a series which only appears on one paper ( preferably one stamp for
each of the different papers) for use as a control then examine ( by
eye ) each copy you receive against these. There are sometimes nuances
of shade which differentiate these even when unlisted and sometimes
the general appearance of the paper is different. However on used or
dirty stamps this is not always helpful. Dated copies can assist but
caution should be used with dates just after the issue date of the new
version ( or any copies from remote or very rural post offices with
projected low usage ).

The catalogues appear to be very reluctant to discuss flourescence not
related to postal mechanisation, but sometimes the term "chalky" is
used to describe this ( presumably someone somewhere used the silver
test). A good example of this is the South Africa 1961 definitives -
third series ( original design with wmk RSA in triangle dating from
1963 or thereabouts ).This is described in SG as chalky but compare
this paper with the 2 earlier series ( Arms wmk and no wmk) under the
lamp and the flourescence is very evident. When dealing with a large
quantity of these stamps I use the lamp before I even look for a
watermark ! Even where these are mentioned exact ( or earliest known)
dates are seldom discussed. We have already discussed Rein Netherlands
"Queen" definitives issued on on ordinary, flourescent and
phosphorescent papers - the phosphorescent is easily dealt with but
more precise dating information would be useful for used uncoated/
flourescent examples. I have managed to sort 90% of these , but there
are still a few "borderline" cases.

On modern stamps another problem is when you have an "all-over"
phosphorescent tagging superimposed on stamps which may or may not
have been printed on flourescent (or other) coated paper in the first
place. I have no real evidence for this but my theory is that the
difference in intensity of phosphorescent reaction on modern Italian
definitives for example may be as a result of different underlying
papers - and I think that even the lw and sw bands on philatelic lamps
are too broad to examine this. What you need are lamps which emit
ONLY the wavelength which will excite a specific reaction ( and this
will be different for every stamp - or at least every chemical used
in stamp production).

We know I think thanks to you and others much more about modern papers
( and much more technical information is the public domain ), but I
fear that due to loss of records ( and lack of scientific records
being kept in the first place), and deterioration of papers through
time - much about earlier stamps may never be known - especially those
of historically "unpopular" countries.Compare the information on
Argentinian stamps for example ( how sycophantic am I ?) with that of
other South American countries.

A lot more scientific basis needs to be used in identifying papers -
personally I think that papers is the most difficult of all the areas
of philately to get to grips with - it is also the area which the
philatelic press seems to be the most reluctant to discuss - perhaps
because it is so "difficult".

Malcolm