ICG and Ancient Coin Grading: Need advice

Scottishmoney wrote:

Definately not slabbed:

http://www.geocities.com/scottishmon...usaartemis.jpg


Huh. Show-off. ;-)

I just looked at my inventory here and discovered that I have a coin
dating from the 6th-5th century B.C., an AR diobol from Miletos, Ionia,
"the intellectual and commercial center of the Greek world before
Athens rose to prominence":


http://members.aol.com:/ankaaz/pictures/miletosx.jpg

~Anka

On 23 May 2005 16:59:52 -0700, "Anka" wrote:


Scottishmoney wrote:

Definately not slabbed:

http://www.geocities.com/scottishmon...usaartemis.jpg


Huh. Show-off. ;-)

I just looked at my inventory here and discovered that I have a coin
dating from the 6th-5th century B.C., an AR diobol from Miletos, Ionia,
"the intellectual and commercial center of the Greek world before
Athens rose to prominence":


http://members.aol.com:/ankaaz/pictures/miletosx.jpg

~Anka

Since the coin isn't slabbed, do you have any knowledge of its
previous owners. Was it found buried or has it been in a collection
since it was originally minted? I can't quite get my mind wrapped
around how these coins remain in pristine or even pretty nice
condition for all the years. Where have they been?
Please educate me.
Thanks,
Cliff

On 23 May 2005 16:59:52 -0700, "Anka" wrote:

I just looked at my inventory here and discovered that I have a coin
dating from the 6th-5th century B.C., an AR diobol from Miletos, Ionia,
"the intellectual and commercial center of the Greek world before
Athens rose to prominence":

http://members.aol.com:/ankaaz/pictures/miletosx.jpg

These Miletos twelfth staters are the earliest inexpensive coins, and
yours is a nice specimen. Your photo/scan though makes it look more
like a bronze than a silver coin. It has a false orange cast, possibly
a result of your using regular incandescent lightbulbs for lighting
without compensating for it. At any rate, this is how orangey pics
like this often happen.

I agree that encapsulation makes little sense to me for ancient coins,
and most collectors feel this way, which is the reason it's used
relatively infrequently, as a percentage of total coin sales, compared
with U.S. coins. Collectors of ancients like to handle their coins --
it's part of the enjoyment. You don't have the same almost anal fear
about touching a coin's surfaces as you have with U.S. coins. Coins
were minted to be touched, to be passed from one hand to another.

But more than the slab itself is the knowledge. Attributing and
authenticating ancient coins requires specialized knowledge, and there
have been many, many reports of coins incorrectly attributed in their
slab. On the other hand, slabs themselves can be attractive, and I
don't begrudge anyone if they prefer to have their coins stored this
way. To each her own.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Cliff wrote:

Since the coin isn't slabbed, do you have any knowledge of its
previous owners. Was it found buried or has it been in a collection
since it was originally minted? I can't quite get my mind wrapped
around how these coins remain in pristine or even pretty nice
condition for all the years. Where have they been?
Please educate me.
Thanks,
Cliff

This particular coin from Miletos came with no provenance, except
perhaps the cryptic little notations on the back of the flip. Coin
collecting has been popular since before the Renaissance, but many
(dare I say most?) ancient coins have histories that go back no further
than the most recent owner (maybe a museum or a wealthy collector whose
numismatic cache was sold at auction) so it's virtually impossible to
establish a lengthy provenance. Oftentimes, the flip or tag that comes
with the ancient coin can give you a clue as to its ownership history.
Sometimes, the dealer can offer information about the coin's previous
owner or its origin, especially if the dealer has contacts who supply
him/her with newly found or acquired ancients. Sometimes, the coin
purchased is a specimen from a hoard that was recently unearthed, or
one of many from a collection sold at auction.

Many of the ancients on the market today have been stored in someone's
cabinet for a number of years. Some of these acquire a kind of patina
called "old cabinet toning," which can be a very desirable quality in a
coin. Coins that have been dug up can be either sold "as is" or
curated (a euphemism for cleaned).

There is no guarantee that a -slabbed- ancient has a documented
pedigree. I own a couple of ancients from well known numismatists
(Vlasto and Curtis) and one that came from Boston's Museum of Fine
Arts, but most of my coins are, as Alan would say, orphans.

Hope this helps, Cliff.

~Anka

Reid Goldsborough wrote:

These Miletos twelfth staters are the earliest inexpensive coins, and
yours is a nice specimen. Your photo/scan though makes it look more
like a bronze than a silver coin. It has a false orange cast,
possibly
a result of your using regular incandescent lightbulbs for lighting
without compensating for it. At any rate, this is how orangey pics
like this often happen.



You assume that I took the photo. I did not.


~Anka

On 24 May 2005 09:02:55 -0700, "Anka" wrote:

You assume that I took the photo. I did not.

I actually didn't assume this, which is why I said "possibly." At any
rate, you can easily correct for the orange cast even though you
didn't take the photo yourself, if you have an image editing program,
to make your coin (a nice one) look like the silver coin it is rather
than a bronze coin.

I agree that these Miletos twelfths are very cool coins. They're one
of my areas, and I've delved into them fairly deeply, putting up a
page about them he

http://rg.ancients.info/lion/miletos.html

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

On 24 May 2005 08:59:49 -0700, "Anka" wrote:


Cliff wrote:

Since the coin isn't slabbed, do you have any knowledge of its
previous owners. Was it found buried or has it been in a collection
since it was originally minted? I can't quite get my mind wrapped
around how these coins remain in pristine or even pretty nice
condition for all the years. Where have they been?
Please educate me.
Thanks,
Cliff

This particular coin from Miletos came with no provenance, except
perhaps the cryptic little notations on the back of the flip. Coin
collecting has been popular since before the Renaissance, but many
(dare I say most?) ancient coins have histories that go back no further
than the most recent owner (maybe a museum or a wealthy collector whose
numismatic cache was sold at auction) so it's virtually impossible to
establish a lengthy provenance. Oftentimes, the flip or tag that comes
with the ancient coin can give you a clue as to its ownership history.
Sometimes, the dealer can offer information about the coin's previous
owner or its origin, especially if the dealer has contacts who supply
him/her with newly found or acquired ancients. Sometimes, the coin
purchased is a specimen from a hoard that was recently unearthed, or
one of many from a collection sold at auction.

Many of the ancients on the market today have been stored in someone's
cabinet for a number of years. Some of these acquire a kind of patina
called "old cabinet toning," which can be a very desirable quality in a
coin. Coins that have been dug up can be either sold "as is" or
curated (a euphemism for cleaned).

There is no guarantee that a -slabbed- ancient has a documented
pedigree. I own a couple of ancients from well known numismatists
(Vlasto and Curtis) and one that came from Boston's Museum of Fine
Arts, but most of my coins are, as Alan would say, orphans.

Hope this helps, Cliff.

~Anka

Thanks Anka, that does help.
Cliff

Reid Goldsborough wrote:

I actually didn't assume this, which is why I said "possibly." At any
rate, you can easily correct for the orange cast even though you
didn't take the photo yourself, if you have an image editing program,
to make your coin (a nice one) look like the silver coin it is rather
than a bronze coin.



When I first saw the coin advertised I thought it was electrum, but
since it was offered for only $100... sigh


Anka

On 24 May 2005 12:52:31 -0700, "Anka" wrote:

When I first saw the coin advertised I thought it was electrum, but
since it was offered for only $100... sigh

*That* would be a deal. Early electrum in incredibly appealing. It's
an odd metal, playing a controversial role in very early coinage. It
appears that it resulted from gold being deliberately debased with
silver, but was it done openly or surreptitiously? If you know, I'd
appreciate it if you would tell me already.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Reid Goldsborough wrote:

*That* would be a deal. Early electrum in incredibly appealing. It's
an odd metal, playing a controversial role in very early coinage. It
appears that it resulted from gold being deliberately debased with
silver, but was it done openly or surreptitiously? If you know, I'd
appreciate it if you would tell me already.



I may be long in the tooth, Reid, but not old enough to have been there
when they mined the stuff.

Geez...

~Anka