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OT. Personal responsibility vs. collective one. On this day in History....12th Dec



 
 
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  #41  
Old December 17th 03, 07:28 PM
Tracy Barber
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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 06:31:16 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote:

12/16/2003 10:08 PM

Tracy Barber wrote:
snipped

In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to
investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded
that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison
camps occurred because of ³race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure
of political leadership.² In 1988, Congress apologized and granted
personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner.


That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most
would have sufficed. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair
liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary
compensation. This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking
Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve
everything. They think they are obligated to right every wrong that has
ever occurred, and do it with money. That in itself should show how
ignorant and out of touch with reality they are. What a large vessel of
bovine fecal material. Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion!
/soapbox


How woud you feel if you were the child of a farmer or fisherman whose
family had had everything taken from you, and you had been separated from
your father for the duration of the war, and forced to live in what amounted
to a prison camp. Would you not feel that your family was entitled to some
compensation? Are you telling us that you would want or expect nothing more
than an apology. If we cannot find compassion in our hearts for people who
are truly wronged, than we have a problem. Not that we don't have problems
enough!


If the money is there -OR- has to be gotten by whatever means, it
would be nice if the govt. did give some compensation to the people -
IF they didn't actively participate in the war / conflict against
those who are making compensation.

Not only Japanese in internment camps, but European people who bank in
Swiss banks and everywhere else. Yes, I feel that what was owned by
Joe Public should be given to Joe Public and not hoarded by the "lucky
ones" because Joe Public died during the conflict. Relatives
(children, heis, etc.) are entitled to that $.

Tracy Barber
Ads
  #42  
Old December 17th 03, 07:31 PM
Tracy Barber
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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:16:05 -0700, Grandpa jsdebooATcomcast.net
wrote:

Bob Ingraham wrote:

12/16/2003 10:08 PM


Tracy Barber wrote:
snipped

In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to
investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded
that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison
camps occurred because of ³race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure
of political leadership.² In 1988, Congress apologized and granted
personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner.

That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most
would have sufficed. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair
liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary
compensation. This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking
Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve
everything. They think they are obligated to right every wrong that has
ever occurred, and do it with money. That in itself should show how
ignorant and out of touch with reality they are. What a large vessel of
bovine fecal material. Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion!
/soapbox



How woud you feel if you were the child of a farmer or fisherman whose
family had had everything taken from you, and you had been separated from
your father for the duration of the war, and forced to live in what amounted
to a prison camp. Would you not feel that your family was entitled to some
compensation? Are you telling us that you would want or expect nothing more
than an apology. If we cannot find compassion in our hearts for people who
are truly wronged, than we have a problem. Not that we don't have problems
enough!


Like Strom Thurmunds new found daughter, yes, an apology would do. No
money required. Sure, I'd be a bit angry, but giving me money is NOT
the way to apologize. In fact, it cheapens the entire process, like
here, take this and shut up. Nope, doesn't cut it IMO. If I were
really that mad about the entire thing, I'd leave the US, the place that
did me wrong.


How about both?

One also has to look at the hysteria involved at the time
and remember that todays rules do not necessarily apply to
yesterdays events.

Hmmm...

Compassion is different than compensation, one has meaning, the
other does not except as punishment or a payoff. And if you could be
bought off with money then you were not really angry in the first place,
you were greedy. A pretty shallow way to live IMO.


Still a lot of greed going around from WWII, to this day, no doubt.
If compassions were a word that the Japanese knew and felt, an apology
would have been made by now - not a 1/2 arse one that we got sideways.

It seems that the U.S. did more to be compassionate / compensate than
the Japanese have done, but of course, I'm always missing the boat, so
I may be wrong. I may be right. I just may be the lunatic you're
looking for... :^P

Tracy Barber
  #43  
Old December 17th 03, 07:43 PM
Tracy Barber
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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:42:54 -0700, Grandpa jsdebooATcomcast.net
wrote:

snip

I totally disagree sir. I am NOT responsible for what my father or
grandfather did.


But we still have to eat the poop generated by said acts. If we
choose to do so.

Take the American Indian for instance. We put him on
a piece of crappy land in most cases and gave them a monthly stipend for
life. We gave them homes, vehicles and other tangible things, then left
them to fend for themselves. We gave them everything of monetary value
saying "Oh, those poor Indians, they need to be compensated so lets give
them money." Caca, now many are drunks, only live on the reservations
because they can do so for free and don't have to work, but did we help
them?


You said it - they choose to do so. Whatever reason they choose to do
so is their business. Some of them are drunks because they choose to
be that way. Some are very prominent people in the surrounding
communities. So that reasoning applies to them as well?

You got it - they can live there for free.

Many still believe that some of the reservations have spiritual
connections, some don't.

So, you're telling us that these people cannot get an education,
cannot get a job, cannot better themselves if they want to? WITH the
help of the U.S. govt? Yes-sir-ee-boB they can!

Nope, we cheapened it by giving monetary value, not things of
real value, like education, equality and most importantly - DIGNITY.


In the beginning, I agree. That was then. That was 100 years ago.
By now, they could be doing things differently, but they choose not
to. Some of them live pretty well, considering the gambling stuff
that goes on there. Not all is poverty, gloom and doom.

We took their pride and gave them money instead. Morals and money do not
go together and throwing more money at an issue rarely resolves the
issue, it just strings it along further and further until its eventually
forgotten about.


I don't think it'll ever be forgtten. I, for one, (and I'm not Native
American), will not let it slide even it's words only action. I am no
longer blind to the Roy Rogers / Custer movies of the past. I have
been informed of these struggles.

I can't help out except for keeping a positive 'tude about it all. I
do have some Native American friends. They are no different than me
or you.

I'm simply stating my opinion in rebuttal to someone elses opinion,
nothing more, nothing less.


'Twasn't an opinion. Just a reference on a web site. Used to bolster
the "hysteria" movement apres Pearl Harbor.

I sincerely hope I didn't **** anyone off
but if so, oh well. We can disagree and still be friendly can't we?


Oh... oh... oh... go soak a stamp! :^P

I don't hate or dislike others because we don't see eye to eye and expect
others to be the same.


That may get you into trouble, in UseNet. Believe me, not everyone is
on the same playing field!!!!! But, I, for one, have no problem with
our little debates here. We're a heck of a lot more friendly than
some other groups I've frequented.

Happy Holidays.


Same to you and yours. Seems like a good one so far.

Tracy Barber
  #44  
Old December 17th 03, 07:47 PM
Tracy Barber
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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:43:33 GMT, "Dave"
wrote:

Please ignore me, I'm getting and staying out of these arguments. This
group is starting to get too political for me.


Dave -

Many stamps have arisen from political escapades. Sometimes we do
need a good gargling of politico mumbo jumbo. A steady diet of
Machins, Sowers and Ceres will only keep our blinders on to the rest
of the world. :^P

Back to collecting my friends!


Yes, indeedy!

Tracy Barber
  #45  
Old December 17th 03, 09:04 PM
Bob Ingraham
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12/17/2003 10:47 AM

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:43:33 GMT, "Dave"
wrote:

Please ignore me, I'm getting and staying out of these arguments. This
group is starting to get too political for me.


Dave -

Many stamps have arisen from political escapades. Sometimes we do
need a good gargling of politico mumbo jumbo. A steady diet of
Machins, Sowers and Ceres will only keep our blinders on to the rest
of the world. :^P


Amen! What is a collection of WWII stamps and covers like mine if it isn't
first and foremost political? In fact, I doubt that I would be very
interesting in continuing that collection if it weren't for the fascinating
history, large chunks of it political, that I learn as a result of the
collection. I'm trying to get a Vietnam War collection started. It seems
rather political already....

Bob

  #46  
Old December 17th 03, 09:19 PM
Tracy Barber
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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:04:04 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote:

12/17/2003 10:47 AM

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:43:33 GMT, "Dave"
wrote:

Please ignore me, I'm getting and staying out of these arguments. This
group is starting to get too political for me.


Dave -

Many stamps have arisen from political escapades. Sometimes we do
need a good gargling of politico mumbo jumbo. A steady diet of
Machins, Sowers and Ceres will only keep our blinders on to the rest
of the world. :^P


Amen! What is a collection of WWII stamps and covers like mine if it isn't
first and foremost political? In fact, I doubt that I would be very
interesting in continuing that collection if it weren't for the fascinating
history, large chunks of it political, that I learn as a result of the
collection. I'm trying to get a Vietnam War collection started. It seems
rather political already....


With something like that, I'd be very interested in the provisional
issues. I currently collect the post-French colony issues
overprinted. These are quite interesting. Further, there are many
for North Vietnam in those times - 40s, 50s, 60s - that are equally
cool. Many of the newer issues, though, have gone the same route as
Nicaragua and cuba in their printing and issuance.

Indochina, in general is a "hot spot" for many collectors.

Tracy Barber
  #47  
Old December 17th 03, 10:06 PM
Grandpa
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Peter, I can see that we'll get no place with the discussion, and even
feel we are not too far apart on our beliefs so how about we simply
agree to disagree and let it go at that sir?

Merry Christmas

  #48  
Old December 18th 03, 01:09 PM
Dave
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Perhaps my contention is that no one here would really in their heart
want me to start off on political issues.
On the other hand, politics does drive the issuance of stamps, even by
SNA! Stamps are issued for many reasons and in the past 50-60 years of US
commemoratives we can see loads of stamps that were issued to stroke some
group or another, propaganda, political initiatives, government
self-promotion, etc. They have strayed far from commemorating events,
people or places. Off the top of my head, perhaps the first political issue
was the 1930s NRA stamp, which promoted a Franklin Roosevelt pet program.
There may be earlier stamps than that, but that one comes to mind readily.
The more recent issues that are semi-postal stamps fund organizations.
The "Stop Family Violence" stamp will likely go down as the ugliest stamp of
the the 21st Century, but it was issued as so many are these days at the
issistance of pressure groups. I would like a stamp issued for tea
drinkers, but that doesn't mean there should be one. Everyone has a pet
project that would be a potential stamp, but should they?
Here's an idea. Make a prestige booklet on home repair. The stamps
would commemorate tools invented by Americans. The book would have "how to"
and hints on simple home repair. Simple idea, but it would never fly. The
education has gone out of stamps and most seem to reflect some propaganda,
even some we hold dear to our heart.
So back to our albums, where the propaganda of stamps find a place.
Dave
"Tracy Barber" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:43:33 GMT, "Dave"
wrote:

Please ignore me, I'm getting and staying out of these arguments.

This
group is starting to get too political for me.


Dave -

Many stamps have arisen from political escapades. Sometimes we do
need a good gargling of politico mumbo jumbo. A steady diet of
Machins, Sowers and Ceres will only keep our blinders on to the rest
of the world. :^P

Back to collecting my friends!


Yes, indeedy!

Tracy Barber



  #49  
Old December 18th 03, 03:07 PM
Peter D
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"Tracy Barber"

If compassions were a word that the Japanese knew and felt, an apology
would have been made by now - not a 1/2 arse one that we got sideways.

It seems that the U.S. did more to be compassionate / compensate than
the Japanese have done, but of course, I'm always missing the boat, so
I may be wrong. I may be right. I just may be the lunatic you're
looking for... :^P


If by "the Japanese" you mean the goverment (people) of that nation on the
other side of the Pacific, then what does it have to do with the those who
were interned and lost property? Those were not "the Japanese". The point.
You appear to be making the same connnection that was what got the US into
this mess in the first place.


  #50  
Old December 18th 03, 04:38 PM
Tracy Barber
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On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:07:10 GMT, "Peter D" [email protected] wrote:

"Tracy Barber"

If compassions were a word that the Japanese knew and felt, an apology
would have been made by now - not a 1/2 arse one that we got sideways.

It seems that the U.S. did more to be compassionate / compensate than
the Japanese have done, but of course, I'm always missing the boat, so
I may be wrong. I may be right. I just may be the lunatic you're
looking for... :^P


If by "the Japanese" you mean the goverment (people) of that nation on the
other side of the Pacific, then what does it have to do with the those who
were interned and lost property? Those were not "the Japanese". The point.
You appear to be making the same connnection that was what got the US into
this mess in the first place.


OK, not all of them, but count the spies, the rogues, etc. Has anyone
ever done that - or were they all saints?

Tracy Barber
 




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