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#31
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:28:03 -0800, Eric Bustad
wrote: Tracy Barber wrote: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:30:30 GMT, Bob Ingraham wrote: 12/16/2003 12:21 PM "Tracy Barber" wrote in message m... An excuse, but not a very good one. A wrong is a wrong, regardless of the circumstances. And neither German and Italian Canadians, nor German and Italian Americans, were shipped to what amounted to concentration camps, nor did they have their possessions confiscated. How is the wartime treatment of Japanese Canadians and Americans not a crime? Apparently, you have forgotten about the hysteria that was created by the Pearl Harbor and other propaganda surrounding it. The Hawaiian Japanese Americans, who logically were the most 'dangerous', were left alone. The more bigoted West coast (where I grew up) had a bigoted commander who pushed to treat even kids worse than criminals. The Germans nor the Italians directly attacked our "shores", so to speak. Actually, German subs operated right off the Atlantic coast sinking ships and landing spies. Those caught were interned here in Delaware. TJR Good points, Terry. There can really be no serious argument that "war hysteria" was the cause of the Japanese internments in both Canada and the U.S. Let's call it what it was: bigotry. And you call Japanese aggression what? Tracy Barber War crimes. Do you always blame innocent persons, such as the Japanese Americans, for the misdeeds of the political leaders in their former homeland? If they take no part in the action, of course not. So, the internment is a worse crime than the war crimes committed? Yes, I do hold them responsible if they spy for the invading forces. Please do not attempt to deny that this was in the works in Hawaii as well as the mainland. Not only for Japanese, but for Germany. But, it sure as hell seems that all Americans are being bashed for what the elected officials are doing all the time. The U.S. is the poop bag du jour, according to the world. Pot - Kettle - Black. In Japan, they knew the deal when they got into it. Same with Germany, although even though those innocent citizens lived only a mile or so away form the death camps. Yeah, innocent my arse. In the end game, is is too damn sad that people have to die because idiots make decisions like mentioned. Until there's a global enforcement, everyone included, under a neutral administrative power, this will keep on happening. Tracy Barber |
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:30:30 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote: Good points, Terry. There can really be no serious argument that "war hysteria" was the cause of the Japanese internments in both Canada and the U.S. Let's call it what it was: bigotry. How about these for "hysteria"... http://www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo/9066/9066.htm Following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, the United States was gripped by war hysteria. This was especially strong along the Pacific coast of the U.S., where residents feared more Japanese attacks on their cities, homes, and businesses. Leaders in California, Oregon, and Washington, demanded that the residents of Japanese ancestry be removed from their homes along the coast and relocated in isolated inland areas. http://www.crf-usa.org/terror/korematsu.htm In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison camps occurred because of “race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership.” In 1988, Congress apologized and granted personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner. http://www.libertyhaven.com/theoreti...nternment.html On February 19, 1942, President Franklin Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, approving the en masse relocation of Japanese and Japanese-American citizens from the West Coast into the interior of the country. The order was signed amid the hysteria following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. The reason given at the time for the evacuation was concern about espionage, or so-called "fifth--column," activities of Japanese and Japanese-Americans on the Coast. But according to the government's own intelligence service, this concern over espionage was misplaced. That is, concern for national security was not the true reason for interning Japanese and Japanese-Americans during World War II. Instead, this internment was motivated by nothing other than interest-group politics. ....More, if needed. 'Nuff Said. Tracy Barber |
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Tracy Barber wrote:
snipped In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison camps occurred because of “race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership.” In 1988, Congress apologized and granted personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner. That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most would have sufficed. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary compensation. This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve everything. They think they are obligated to right every wrong that has ever occurred, and do it with money. That in itself should show how ignorant and out of touch with reality they are. What a large vessel of bovine fecal material. Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion! /soapbox |
#34
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12/16/2003 10:08 PM
Tracy Barber wrote: snipped In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison camps occurred because of ³race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership.² In 1988, Congress apologized and granted personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner. That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most would have sufficed. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary compensation. This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve everything. They think they are obligated to right every wrong that has ever occurred, and do it with money. That in itself should show how ignorant and out of touch with reality they are. What a large vessel of bovine fecal material. Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion! /soapbox How woud you feel if you were the child of a farmer or fisherman whose family had had everything taken from you, and you had been separated from your father for the duration of the war, and forced to live in what amounted to a prison camp. Would you not feel that your family was entitled to some compensation? Are you telling us that you would want or expect nothing more than an apology. If we cannot find compassion in our hearts for people who are truly wronged, than we have a problem. Not that we don't have problems enough! Bob Ingraham |
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"Grandpa" jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message
... Tracy Barber wrote: snipped In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison camps occurred because of “race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership.” In 1988, Congress apologized and granted personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner. That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most would have sufficed. An apology offered without some sort of compensation, especially when the compensation is not hurtful to the one doing it, is appropriate. Noble, maybe. Decent, yes. The right thing to do, certainly. But stupid and asinine, never. Words without actions are just words. I would have thought a person calling himself "Grandpa" would be old and wise enough to understand that. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary compensation. Of course they are. Especially in this situation. You, the people, profited from the theft of their property. You, the people, through your elected officials, wrongfully interred them. therefore, you, the people, pay the compensation. And even if it were a bit of a grey area, why would you not want to see someone whose life was ruined receive a token amount that would serve to help them settle some matters as they approached their twilight years? This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve everything. Provide proof that is the case. But know that even if it was, it still doesn't make it wrong (simple logic really). Psst. Grandpa, watch where you step. You splattered a lot of the bfm from that soapbox. Don't step in any. :-) |
#36
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Bob Ingraham wrote:
12/16/2003 10:08 PM Tracy Barber wrote: snipped In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison camps occurred because of ³race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership.² In 1988, Congress apologized and granted personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner. That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most would have sufficed. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary compensation. This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve everything. They think they are obligated to right every wrong that has ever occurred, and do it with money. That in itself should show how ignorant and out of touch with reality they are. What a large vessel of bovine fecal material. Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion! /soapbox How woud you feel if you were the child of a farmer or fisherman whose family had had everything taken from you, and you had been separated from your father for the duration of the war, and forced to live in what amounted to a prison camp. Would you not feel that your family was entitled to some compensation? Are you telling us that you would want or expect nothing more than an apology. If we cannot find compassion in our hearts for people who are truly wronged, than we have a problem. Not that we don't have problems enough! Like Strom Thurmunds new found daughter, yes, an apology would do. No money required. Sure, I'd be a bit angry, but giving me money is NOT the way to apologize. In fact, it cheapens the entire process, like here, take this and shut up. Nope, doesn't cut it IMO. If I were really that mad about the entire thing, I'd leave the US, the place that did me wrong. One also has to look at the hysteria involved at the time and remember that todays rules do not necessarily apply to yesterdays events. Compassion is different than compensation, one has meaning, the other does not except as punishment or a payoff. And if you could be bought off with money then you were not really angry in the first place, you were greedy. A pretty shallow way to live IMO. |
#37
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Peter D wrote:
That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most would have sufficed. An apology offered without some sort of compensation, especially when the compensation is not hurtful to the one doing it, is appropriate. Noble, maybe. Decent, yes. The right thing to do, certainly. But stupid and asinine, never. Words without actions are just words. I would have thought a person calling himself "Grandpa" would be old and wise enough to understand that. I am old enough and wise enough to understand when someone is being arrogant (not you, the issue at hand) and wanting to buy me off to shut up. If the wrong is that great then you fight for whats right on PRINCIPLE, not take the money and run. If it was THAT wrong, what did you do or the alledged perpetrator do to keep this from happening again? Nothing, they [ayed you off with hush money and you pocketed some money and left the door open for it to happen again in the future. Asinine, yes, because no good came from it in the end except to stimulate the economy by lining someones pockets and that being a burden on the taxpayers. I'm not talking about the amounts of money but rather the process and principles involved. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary compensation. Of course they are. Especially in this situation. You, the people, profited from the theft of their property. You, the people, through your elected officials, wrongfully interred them. therefore, you, the people, pay the compensation. And even if it were a bit of a grey area, why would you not want to see someone whose life was ruined receive a token amount that would serve to help them settle some matters as they approached their twilight years? I totally disagree sir. I am NOT responsible for what my father or grandfather did. Take the American Indian for instance. We put him on a piece of crappy land in most cases and gave them a monthly stipend for life. We gave them homes, vehicles and other tangible things, then left them to fend for themselves. We gave them everything of monetary value saying "Oh, those poor Indians, they need to be compensated so lets give them money." Caca, now many are drunks, only live on the reservations because they can do so for free and don't have to work, but did we help them? Nope, we cheapened it by giving monetary value, not things of real value, like education, equality and most importantly - DIGNITY. We took their pride and gave them money instead. Morals and money do not go together and throwing more money at an issue rarely resolves the issue, it just strings it along further and further until its eventually forgotten about. Psst. Grandpa, watch where you step. You splattered a lot of the bfm from that soapbox. Don't step in any. :-) I'm simply stating my opinion in rebuttal to someone elses opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I sincerely hope I didn't **** anyone off but if so, oh well. We can disagree and still be friendly can't we? I don't hate or dislike others because we don't see eye to eye and expect others to be the same. Happy Holidays. |
#38
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Please ignore me, I'm getting and staying out of these arguments. This
group is starting to get too political for me. Back to collecting my friends! Dave |
#39
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"Grandpa" jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message
... Peter D wrote: That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most would have sufficed. An apology offered without some sort of compensation, especially when the compensation is not hurtful to the one doing it, is appropriate. Noble, maybe. Decent, yes. The right thing to do, certainly. But stupid and asinine, never. Words without actions are just words. I would have thought a person calling himself "Grandpa" would be old and wise enough to understand that. I am old enough and wise enough to understand when someone is being arrogant (not you, the issue at hand) and wanting to buy me off to shut up. Understood. But that isn't the issue with the compensation given. I think all parties understood it was insufficient to cover the losses of most of the people affected (it didn't even cover the losses of those who died). It was a token, a gesture, a way to bring closure to a sad and sorry state of what alleged to be the most free nation on Earth. It has long been a principal of law/justice that while monetary compensaiton does not properly address wrongs, it is a reasonable means of compensating the wrong. I suspect that your harsh judgement of those who received compensaiton and those who gave it is flawed. Certainly you seem insensitive and boorish in regard to the victims. I could be wrong, but that is what I get from your writings on the matter. I apologize if I have misunderstood you, but I call it the way I see it. :-) In no way were/are the descendents of this affair liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary compensation. Of course they are. Especially in this situation. You, the people, profited from the theft of their property. You, the people, through your elected officials, wrongfully interred them. therefore, you, the people, pay the compensation. And even if it were a bit of a grey area, why would you not want to see someone whose life was ruined receive a token amount that would serve to help them settle some matters as they approached their twilight years? I totally disagree sir. I am NOT responsible for what my father or grandfather did. That is not what I said. This isn't about _you_. This is about _all of you_. It is a _collective guilt. And thus the compensaiton is collective. And the doing away of the harm is collective. I deleted your coments re the Indigenous People of what is now your land. I found them to be sweeping generalisaitons and a truly singular perspective that has nothing to do with the actual matter at hand. |
#40
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:08:40 -0700, Grandpa jsdebooATcomcast.net
wrote: Tracy Barber wrote: snipped In 1980, President Carter appointed a special commission to investigate the entire internment affair. The commission concluded that the decisions to remove those of Japanese ancestry to prison camps occurred because of “race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership.” In 1988, Congress apologized and granted personal compensation of $20,000 to each surviving prisoner. That was a stupid and asinine move by Carter. A sincere apology at most would have sufficed. In no way were/are the descendents of this affair liable for anything their ancesters did, especially the monetary compensation. This is all part of the touchey-feeley do-gooder stinking Liberal agenda being pushed by idiots who think money can resolve everything. They think they are obligated to right every wrong that has ever occurred, and do it with money. That in itself should show how ignorant and out of touch with reality they are. What a large vessel of bovine fecal material. Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion! /soapbox Grandpa - you missed the point I was making. You brought up another point, which is valid for you. I wasn't talking about Carter - I was talking about hysteria. I think I mad my point because you went hysterical! Yes, everyone is entitled to my opinion! :^P Tracy Barber |
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