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Help with identification of English token/conder token?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 9th 05, 05:15 PM
Warren and Paula Jo Merrill
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Default Help with identification of English token/conder token?

I have a token that is eluding me as far as identification. I would
appreciate all tips on what it is. Specifically I'm interested in knowing
if this is a Conder Token or just some other type of English token.


Obverse: (Portrait of a man) and says 'R WARREN THE INVENTOR OF JAPAN LIQUID
BLACKING

Reverse: outline of a bottle with inscription No. 14 ST. MARTINS LANE LONDON
and around the endge ROBERT WARRENS LIQUID BLACKING MANUFACTORY

Edge: diagonal reeding


Thanks for all help



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  #2  
Old April 9th 05, 05:57 PM
James Higby
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"Warren and Paula Jo Merrill" wrote in message
...
I have a token that is eluding me as far as identification. I would
appreciate all tips on what it is. Specifically I'm interested in knowing
if this is a Conder Token or just some other type of English token.


Obverse: (Portrait of a man) and says 'R WARREN THE INVENTOR OF JAPAN
LIQUID BLACKING

Reverse: outline of a bottle with inscription No. 14 ST. MARTINS LANE
LONDON and around the endge ROBERT WARRENS LIQUID BLACKING MANUFACTORY

Edge: diagonal reeding


Thanks for all help


None of those legends turn up in the Legends Index of Conder Tokens by
Schmidt, so I doubt that yours is a Conder. I think that japanning was an
early 19th century invention, so the token might have originated in the
1811-1820 period, when many tokens proliferated, and which have been
catalogued by Withers.

Is there a date on the piece?

Here's an interesting webpage:

http://www.erudit.org/revue/ron/1999.../005874ar.html

James


  #3  
Old April 9th 05, 08:02 PM
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Default

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 10:15:18 -0600, "Warren and Paula Jo Merrill"
wrote:
I have a token that is eluding me as far as identification. I would
appreciate all tips on what it is. Specifically I'm interested in knowing
if this is a Conder Token or just some other type of English token.

Obverse: (Portrait of a man) and says 'R WARREN THE INVENTOR OF
JAPAN LIQUID BLACKING

Reverse: outline of a bottle with inscription No. 14 ST. MARTINS LANE LONDON
and around the endge ROBERT WARRENS LIQUID BLACKING MANUFACTORY


What James says is true, it's not a Conder token (which wasn't so much
a type of token as it was an era of tokens and token collecting). But
it's likely a little later than the 1811-1820 period... 1830 or so.

These are larger (31mm) than the tokens in the 'Unofficial Farthings'
series catalogued by Bell (and later Whitmore), but Warren issued an
Unofficial Farthing (21mm) also (Bell Middlesex 14). Bell estimated
Warren's UF was issued circa 1831. I have one of each... you didn't
ask, but unless it's in very nice condition, it's only worth a few
dollars. They're advertising pieces, more than anything.

Robert Warren's blacking business is sometimes confused with Jonathan
Warren's, where Charles Dickens worked as a child:

"This speculation was a rivalry of 'Warren's Blacking, 30, Strand,'
--- at that time very famous. One Jonathan Warren (the famous one was
Robert), living at 30, Hungerford Stairs, or Market, Strand (for I
forget which it was called then), claimed to have been the original
inventor or proprietor of the blacking recipe, and to have been
deposed and ill used by his renowned relation. At last he put himself
in the way of selling his recipe, and his name, and his 30, Hungerford
Stairs, Strand (30, Strand, very large, and the intermediate direction
very small), for an annuity; and he set forth by his agents that a
little capital would make a great business of it. The man of some
property was found in George Lamert, the cousin and brother-in-law of
James. He bought this right and title, and went into the blacking
business and the blacking premises." (From Dickens' autobiography)

Chuck
  #4  
Old April 10th 05, 05:12 AM
Warren and Paula Jo Merrill
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"James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote in message
...
None of those legends turn up in the Legends Index of Conder Tokens by
Schmidt, so I doubt that yours is a Conder. I think that japanning was an
early 19th century invention, so the token might have originated in the
1811-1820 period, when many tokens proliferated, and which have been
catalogued by Withers.

Is there a date on the piece?



No, no date on it at all. Also I should mention it is almost exactly the
same size as a typical Conder token, about 30 cm across.

Also I have been very interested in Conder tokens the past year, in fact I
did purchase a copy of the Dalton & Hamer book (ya, thats a fairly
significant interest to pay that much!) but I've found at times the index is
somewhat lacking. So I wasn't sure if I just couldn't find it or it was not
a Conder. I purchased it originally just because it looked so much like a
Conder token I thought it might be one. I've bought several that way where
the dealer had no idea what the coin was, only that it was English (Conders
just haven't caught on that much in the U.S. yet I guess).

So to me its still an interesting piece but I guess it gets catalogued as
just an English token in my set of stuff......


P.S. I'm not familiar at all with what the Schmidt book is?



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  #5  
Old April 10th 05, 05:42 AM
James Higby
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"Warren and Paula Jo Merrill" wrote in message
...

"James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote in message
...
None of those legends turn up in the Legends Index of Conder Tokens by
Schmidt, so I doubt that yours is a Conder. I think that japanning was
an early 19th century invention, so the token might have originated in
the 1811-1820 period, when many tokens proliferated, and which have been
catalogued by Withers.

Is there a date on the piece?



No, no date on it at all. Also I should mention it is almost exactly the
same size as a typical Conder token, about 30 cm across.

Also I have been very interested in Conder tokens the past year, in fact I
did purchase a copy of the Dalton & Hamer book (ya, thats a fairly
significant interest to pay that much!) but I've found at times the index
is somewhat lacking. So I wasn't sure if I just couldn't find it or it
was not a Conder. I purchased it originally just because it looked so
much like a Conder token I thought it might be one. I've bought several
that way where the dealer had no idea what the coin was, only that it was
English (Conders just haven't caught on that much in the U.S. yet I
guess).

So to me its still an interesting piece but I guess it gets catalogued as
just an English token in my set of stuff......


P.S. I'm not familiar at all with what the Schmidt book is?


"Legend Index of English Conder Tokens" c2001, self-published by Michael
Schmidt, 70pp. spiral bound.

You look up anything that is on the coin and it tells you what area and what
D&H number the token is. I'm not 100% sure where I got it, or how much I
paid, but it should still be available. I highly recommend it!

James


  #6  
Old April 10th 05, 05:44 AM
James Higby
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Warren and Paula Jo Merrill" wrote in message
...

"James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote in message
...
None of those legends turn up in the Legends Index of Conder Tokens by
Schmidt, so I doubt that yours is a Conder. I think that japanning was
an early 19th century invention, so the token might have originated in
the 1811-1820 period, when many tokens proliferated, and which have been
catalogued by Withers.

Is there a date on the piece?



No, no date on it at all. Also I should mention it is almost exactly the
same size as a typical Conder token, about 30 cm across.

Also I have been very interested in Conder tokens the past year, in fact I
did purchase a copy of the Dalton & Hamer book (ya, thats a fairly
significant interest to pay that much!) but I've found at times the index
is somewhat lacking. So I wasn't sure if I just couldn't find it or it
was not a Conder. I purchased it originally just because it looked so
much like a Conder token I thought it might be one. I've bought several
that way where the dealer had no idea what the coin was, only that it was
English (Conders just haven't caught on that much in the U.S. yet I
guess).

So to me its still an interesting piece but I guess it gets catalogued as
just an English token in my set of stuff......


P.S. I'm not familiar at all with what the Schmidt book is?

Check this website:

http://www.exonumia.com/books.htm

I know Rick Hartzog, he's a good guy.

James


  #7  
Old April 10th 05, 09:07 AM
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 22:12:26 -0600, "Warren and Paula Jo Merrill"
wrote:
No, no date on it at all. Also I should mention it is almost exactly the
same size as a typical Conder token, about 30 cm across.

Also I have been very interested in Conder tokens the past year, in fact I
did purchase a copy of the Dalton & Hamer book (ya, thats a fairly
significant interest to pay that much!) but I've found at times the index is
somewhat lacking. So I wasn't sure if I just couldn't find it or it was not
a Conder. I purchased it originally just because it looked so much like a
Conder token I thought it might be one. I've bought several that way where
the dealer had no idea what the coin was, only that it was English (Conders
just haven't caught on that much in the U.S. yet I guess).

So to me its still an interesting piece but I guess it gets catalogued as
just an English token in my set of stuff......


There's one on eBay right now, very banged up...

http://tinyurl.com/3suek

....they call it a Conder, too... but lots of people just lump anything
remotely close into the 'Conder' bucket without too much thought.

It's apparently Davis 63 in the 19th-Century token catalog.

James mentioned the Schmidt book; there's also a book put out by John
Whitmore, "The Token Tracer: An Index Of Token Legends 1700-1860",
that helps with the tokens where you really have no idea.

Also, R.C. Bell's "Commercial Coins 1787-1804" has a pretty decent
8-page index of issuers, towns, manufacturers and diesinkers.

Chuck
  #8  
Old January 25th 10, 11:48 AM
BCNumismatics BCNumismatics is offline
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First recorded activity by CollectingBanter: Jan 2010
Location: Dominion of New Zealand.
Posts: 16
Talking

Currency tokens are classed as being coins,as they were used as coins during severe coin shortages.

The British Isles ones are of interest to me,as I am collecting British Commonwealth currency tokens in addition to banknotes,coins,& postal orders.

Aidan.
__________________
Aidan Work.

My British Commonwealth numismatic photos; http://www.uscoininfo.com/gallery/u6-bcnumismatics.html .

Please let me know what you think.

You can join up here; http://www.uscoininfo.com/gallery/ .
 




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