Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions

On Oct 13, 11:02*am, "The Giant Brain" wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message

...

They have actual dies from the US mint

and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with computer
enhanced laser etching techniques.

IIRC the US Mint completely defaces all used dies.
Unless those crafty Chinese have broken into the Mint vaults that is!

It may do so currently. The currently valuable coins are made with
dies (among others) from the 19th century. China bought the presses
from the US, directly. The Chinese government used them and when it
had no further use for them, sold them to the highest bidder. I am
less sure of the provenance of the dies. The ones I saw (at a lecture
by Dr. Gregory Dubay) were worn, but as I understand it, genuine.
Thus, they had the die steel. The computer enhanced etching would,
with the correct steel allow creating very high quality new dies. His
estimate of the cost of a new set of dies was around $3,000 per set.

So, why would you pay more for a coin than the Chinese ask?

Peter wrote:
On Oct 13, 11:02 am, "The Giant Brain" wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message

...

They have actual dies from the US mint

and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with
computer enhanced laser etching techniques.

IIRC the US Mint completely defaces all used dies.
Unless those crafty Chinese have broken into the Mint vaults that is!

It may do so currently. The currently valuable coins are made with
dies (among others) from the 19th century. China bought the presses
from the US, directly. The Chinese government used them and when it
had no further use for them, sold them to the highest bidder. I am
less sure of the provenance of the dies. The ones I saw (at a lecture
by Dr. Gregory Dubay) were worn, but as I understand it, genuine.
Thus, they had the die steel. The computer enhanced etching would,
with the correct steel allow creating very high quality new dies. His
estimate of the cost of a new set of dies was around $3,000 per set.

So, why would you pay more for a coin than the Chinese ask?

Why buy a coin at all when you can have a picture of it on your hard drive,
often for free, and enlarged to several diameters? I personally like the
feeling that I am physically connecting with the American past when I handle
an old coin. Only a genuine coin will convey this totally irrational
notion.

James the Illogical

On Oct 13, 11:50*am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:
Peter wrote:
On Oct 13, 11:02 am, "The Giant Brain" wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message

....

They have actual dies from the US mint

and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with
computer enhanced laser etching techniques.

IIRC the US Mint completely defaces all used dies.
Unless those crafty Chinese have broken into the Mint vaults that is!

It may do so currently. *The currently valuable coins are made with
dies (among others) from the 19th century. *China bought the presses
from the US, directly. *The Chinese government used them and when it
had no further use for them, sold them to the highest bidder. *I am
less sure of the provenance of the dies. *The ones I saw (at a lecture
by Dr. Gregory Dubay) were worn, but as I understand it, genuine.
Thus, they had the die steel. *The computer enhanced etching would,
with the correct steel allow creating very high quality new dies. *His
estimate of the cost of a new set of dies was around $3,000 per set.

So, why would you pay more for a coin than the Chinese ask?

Why buy a coin at all when you can have a picture of it on your hard drive,
often for free, and enlarged to several diameters? *I personally like the
feeling that I am physically connecting with the American past when I handle
an old coin. *Only a genuine coin will convey this totally irrational
notion.

James the Illogical- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, yes it does seem illogical. When you say that you handle an old
coin, how do you know that? Proving it to yourself would seem to be a
primary interest that might be supplemented by an interest in proving
it to others.

Clearly, if you have had the coin for many years and know that you had
it before the Chinese discovered this money making scheme, you may be
right. If you can document the provenance sufficiently you may be
able to pass onward the same feeling and consequently do so at a
profit (or perhaps at least limit your expense).

Otherwise, a collateral point made by Dr. Dubay was that, quite
clearly, making fakes is a serious business for these folks. It is
how they feed themselves and is by no means illegal in China. They
very well understand that they can charge much more for excellent
fakes than they can for ones that look like Cracker Jacks prizes.
They are willing to work very hard with excellent materials to earn
higher prices.

Peter wrote:
On Oct 13, 11:50 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:
Peter wrote:
On Oct 13, 11:02 am, "The Giant Brain" wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message

...

They have actual dies from the US mint

and are able to use the same die steel and make new dies with
computer enhanced laser etching techniques.

IIRC the US Mint completely defaces all used dies.
Unless those crafty Chinese have broken into the Mint vaults that
is!

It may do so currently. The currently valuable coins are made with
dies (among others) from the 19th century. China bought the presses
from the US, directly. The Chinese government used them and when it
had no further use for them, sold them to the highest bidder. I am
less sure of the provenance of the dies. The ones I saw (at a
lecture by Dr. Gregory Dubay) were worn, but as I understand it,
genuine. Thus, they had the die steel. The computer enhanced
etching would, with the correct steel allow creating very high
quality new dies. His estimate of the cost of a new set of dies was
around $3,000 per set.

So, why would you pay more for a coin than the Chinese ask?

Why buy a coin at all when you can have a picture of it on your hard
drive, often for free, and enlarged to several diameters? I
personally like the feeling that I am physically connecting with the
American past when I handle an old coin. Only a genuine coin will
convey this totally irrational notion.

James the Illogical- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, yes it does seem illogical. When you say that you handle an old
coin, how do you know that? Proving it to yourself would seem to be a
primary interest that might be supplemented by an interest in proving
it to others.

Well, I suppose that if one were to take your line of argument to its limit,
he would have to admit that nothing at all can actually be *known*.

Clearly, if you have had the coin for many years and know that you had
it before the Chinese discovered this money making scheme, you may be
right. If you can document the provenance sufficiently you may be
able to pass onward the same feeling and consequently do so at a
profit (or perhaps at least limit your expense).

I care not a whit about what happens to my coins once I cross the Chilly
River. And if my ownership of them fails to constitute adequate
documentation of provenance, so be it, I intend to do nothing about it. I'm
going to enjoy them as much as I can while I'm here and while they are here.
After all, I bought them for my own enjoyment, and my own enjoyment only. I
presume the attending dealers made money in each of my transactions with
them, but it matters not to me whether I or anyone else ever does.

Otherwise, a collateral point made by Dr. Dubay was that, quite
clearly, making fakes is a serious business for these folks. It is
how they feed themselves and is by no means illegal in China. They
very well understand that they can charge much more for excellent
fakes than they can for ones that look like Cracker Jacks prizes.
They are willing to work very hard with excellent materials to earn
higher prices.

Capitalism in its purest form, that, say I.

James the Rugged Individualist
'who pulls himself up by his own bootstraps on a daily basis'

"Peter" wrote in message
...
Consequently, if you are interested, you will need to actually supply some of
your own proof.

Let's see now...
I have to provide myself proof of your assertions.
Sure, let me get right on that and I'll get back to you.

On Oct 12, 8:16*pm, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
Arizona Coin Collector wrote:
FROM:
http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-mo...ils/counterfei...

Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions

By Kathy Kristof
Oct 12, 2009

Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets
and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions
buying what they believe are rare coins, but
they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made
counterfeits.

(fake 1916-D dime, front)
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...col1;attachmen....

(fake 1916-D dime, back)
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...ol1;attachment....

More than a million counterfeit coins manufactured
in China have been fraudulently sold in the U.S.,
according to Coin World, a respected industry
publication. Some of these were peddled as
"replicas" but they were manufactured without the
requisite "copy" stamp.

Roughly 99% of the replicas produced in China
don't contain the "copy" marking that' required
by the U.S. Hobby Protection Act, which is aimed
at warning consumers that they're getting a
mass-produced replica rather than the original,
according to Coin World. As a result, it's easy
to resell these coins at flea markets, swap meets
and through Internet auctions, without giving the
buyer any inkling that the coins could be fakes.

"Millions of dollars already have been spent on
these fakes and potentially millions more may be
unwittingly lost by consumers who mistakenly
think they are getting a genuine rare coin," said
Paul Montgomery, president of the Professional
Numismatists Guild.

How big of a difference does it make? A genuine
1916-D dime sells for about $700, but a replica
can be had for $21.

"Generally the replicas being sold have zero
commercial value," Scott Schechter, vice
president for the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. told
me in an interview. "Most people are looking at
a total loss."

Consumers may be particularly vulnerable at a
time when precious metal prices are hitting
all-time highs, largely because consumers have
become nervous about traditional investments
such as stock and bonds, as well as the rapidly
declining value of the U.S. dollar. Roughly
$5 billion in rare coins are sold each year,
even in the midst of today's recession.

In a joint release issued by the American
Numismatic Association, the Industry Council
for Tangible Assets, the Professional
Numismatists Guild, the Numismatic Guaranty
Corp., and the Professional Coin Grading
Service, the groups urged consumers to
research before they buy and restrict their
purchases to reputable companies that they
have reason to trust. If you are tempted to
buy at a flea market or online, you may want
to check out the coin with authentication
companies such as the Numismatic Guaranty
Corp. or the Professional Coin Grading Service.

Unfortunately, unless the coin is already in an acceptable slab, the burden
of authentication is on the buyer after he has paid for and taken possession
of the coin. *By then the seller is long gone.

James the Wary

This is one reason I only buy from people on eBay who have a return
policy of at least 30 days so I have time check the authenticity of
the coin. I go to coin dealers and friends who also collect coins have
them check the coin. Thankfully a couple of the dealers have been in
the business for about 30 years and they are members of the ANA and
PNG and I put a lot of trust in them.

On Oct 13, 2:26 pm, Peter wrote:
... The link
below is from someone else that attended a lecture given about the
same time and is illustrated.
http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=741248
... Dr. Dubay has actually worked with the creators of the coins
and knows them personally.

Thanks for the link. The post on Collectors Universe is from Dennis
Tucker, a publisher with Whitman. If he was impressed with the
presentation, then it was serious. I note also in that post that Dr.
Dubay's categorization of Chinese fakes is implemented in the new
Professional Edition of The Red Book.

The pictures are stunning. Proof, of course requires more. As we
know, pictures alone cannot convey enough information. At my talk on
fakes in at the ANA in Pittsburgh, I showed slides of counterfeit
Seated Dollars. Dealers found them convincing. However, handling the
coins gave them away. That said, I also showed fake Morgan Dollars
for which hands-on evidence was not helpful. This problem is not new
to 2009. It has been growing over the years. The Chinese fakes of
mainstream US Type coins is now a concern. Everyone is wringing their
hands. Back in 2000 no one was worried about the flood of Bulgarian
fakes of ancients.

Put into a wider context, fake Bosch brake pads, counterfeit Oster
blenders, hokey Gucci handbags, pirated pop music, and other phony
consumer goods are serious problems. Life goes on if someone wears an
Olympic t-shirt that was not licensed by the Olympic Committee.
However, in the case of industrial goods and household appliances,
life might not go on. We buy the name brand because we expect the
quality that goes with it. The other side of the coin is that these
criminal enterprises join the cash streams of international
terrorism. People who smuggle cigarettes also smuggle weapons.

Mike M.
Michael E. Marotta

Mike Marotta wrote:

People who smuggle cigarettes also smuggle weapons.

Really? I didn't know that. Tell us more! What about people who smuggle
alcohol? Do they smuggle weapons too? If you smoke cigarettes, do you
also smoke marijuana? If you smoke marijuana, do you shoot heroin? If
you smuggle cigarettes and alcohol, are you a terrorist? If you smuggle
cigarettes and alcohol and smoke marijuana and shoot heroin, are you
building the bomb?

If the federal government tightens regulations governing the securities
industry, are all of our freedoms in danger? If restaurant chains are
forced to inform patrons about the saturated fat and sodium content of
dishes, is Big Brother going to tell you what you're allowed to eat and
what you're not?

Slippery slope. Big logical fallacy. Huge. A lot of people fall for it.
And it's a favorite technique of demagogues, whether on the right or the
left.

Back to coins, somebody here once said that if you study and publish
information about counterfeits of collectable coins, you're supporting
terrorists. That was you, wasn't it? The connection couldn't be clearer.
As one way they finance themselves, terrorists counterfeit current
currency. Therefore anybody possessing counterfeits, even contemporary
counterfeits of Bust halves or ancient Owls, supports terrorists.

--

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

On Oct 12, 7:20*pm, "Arizona Coin Collector"
wrote:
FROM:http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-mo...ils/counterfei...

Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions

By Kathy Kristof
Oct 12, 2009

Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets
and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions
buying what they believe are rare coins, but
they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made
counterfeits.

(fake 1916-D dime, front)http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...col1;attachmen...

(fake 1916-D dime, back)http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...ol1;attachment...

More than a million counterfeit coins manufactured
in China have been fraudulently sold in the U.S.,
according to Coin World, a respected industry
publication. Some of these were peddled as
"replicas" but they were manufactured without the
requisite "copy" stamp.

Roughly 99% of the replicas produced in China
don't contain the "copy" marking that' required
by the U.S. Hobby Protection Act,

Does the coin have a "Made in China" stamp?
If not, how can one tell whether the coin/replica is
produced in China? Sounds like the companies are
trying to scare the consumers into buying slabbed
coins.


which is aimed
at warning consumers that they're getting a
mass-produced replica rather than the original,
according to Coin World. As a result, it's easy
to resell these coins at flea markets, swap meets
and through Internet auctions, without giving the
buyer any inkling that the coins could be fakes.

"Millions of dollars already have been spent on
these fakes and potentially millions more may be
unwittingly lost by consumers who mistakenly
think they are getting a genuine rare coin," said
Paul Montgomery, president of the Professional
Numismatists Guild.

How big of a difference does it make? A genuine
1916-D dime sells for about $700, but a replica
can be had for $21.

"Generally the replicas being sold have zero
commercial value," Scott Schechter, vice
president for the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. told
me in an interview. "Most people are looking at
a total loss."

Consumers may be particularly vulnerable at a
time when precious metal prices are hitting
all-time highs, largely because consumers have
become nervous about traditional investments
such as stock and bonds, as well as the rapidly
declining value of the U.S. dollar. Roughly
$5 billion in rare coins are sold each year,
even in the midst of today's recession.

In a joint release issued by the American
Numismatic Association, the Industry Council
for Tangible Assets, the Professional
Numismatists Guild, the Numismatic Guaranty
Corp., and the Professional Coin Grading
Service, the groups urged consumers to
research before they buy and restrict their
purchases to reputable companies that they
have reason to trust. If you are tempted to
buy at a flea market or online, you may want
to check out the coin with authentication
companies such as the Numismatic Guaranty
Corp. or the Professional Coin Grading Service.

The Professional Numismatists Guild will also
provide a copy of its booklet, "What You Should
Know Before You Buy Rare Coins," for $1 if you
send a request to them at 3950 Concordia Lane,
Fallbrook, CA 92028.

..

On Oct 12, 8:16*pm, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
Arizona Coin Collector wrote:
FROM:
http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-mo...ils/counterfei...

Counterfeit Coins Cost Consumers Millions

By Kathy Kristof
Oct 12, 2009

Beware buying rare coins online, at flea markets
and swap meets. Consumers are spending millions
buying what they believe are rare coins, but
they're getting near-worthless Chinese-made
counterfeits.

(fake 1916-D dime, front)
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...col1;attachmen....

(fake 1916-D dime, back)
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/fake-1916-d-...ol1;attachment....

More than a million counterfeit coins manufactured
in China have been fraudulently sold in the U.S.,
according to Coin World, a respected industry
publication. Some of these were peddled as
"replicas" but they were manufactured without the
requisite "copy" stamp.

Roughly 99% of the replicas produced in China
don't contain the "copy" marking that' required
by the U.S. Hobby Protection Act, which is aimed
at warning consumers that they're getting a
mass-produced replica rather than the original,
according to Coin World. As a result, it's easy
to resell these coins at flea markets, swap meets
and through Internet auctions, without giving the
buyer any inkling that the coins could be fakes.

"Millions of dollars already have been spent on
these fakes and potentially millions more may be
unwittingly lost by consumers who mistakenly
think they are getting a genuine rare coin," said
Paul Montgomery, president of the Professional
Numismatists Guild.

How big of a difference does it make? A genuine
1916-D dime sells for about $700, but a replica
can be had for $21.

"Generally the replicas being sold have zero
commercial value," Scott Schechter, vice
president for the Numismatic Guaranty Corp. told
me in an interview. "Most people are looking at
a total loss."

Consumers may be particularly vulnerable at a
time when precious metal prices are hitting
all-time highs, largely because consumers have
become nervous about traditional investments
such as stock and bonds, as well as the rapidly
declining value of the U.S. dollar. Roughly
$5 billion in rare coins are sold each year,
even in the midst of today's recession.

In a joint release issued by the American
Numismatic Association, the Industry Council
for Tangible Assets, the Professional
Numismatists Guild, the Numismatic Guaranty
Corp., and the Professional Coin Grading
Service, the groups urged consumers to
research before they buy and restrict their
purchases to reputable companies that they
have reason to trust. If you are tempted to
buy at a flea market or online, you may want
to check out the coin with authentication
companies such as the Numismatic Guaranty
Corp. or the Professional Coin Grading Service.

Unfortunately, unless the coin is already in an acceptable slab, the burden
of authentication is on the buyer after he has paid for and taken possession
of the coin. *By then the seller is long gone.

I always think it is easier to conterfeit the plastic packaging. If
counterfeiting is a
serious concern, there will be no acceptable slab.


James the Wary- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -