Help on telling repro

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:34:57 GMT, "Linda"
wrote:

Can anybody give me a short course in how to tell a good, circulated
reproduction of a liberty quarter from the real deal?

Reid posts this message once in awhile, particularly when he's feeling ignored.
It is not, however, as factual as he would have you belive it to be.

[snip]

But hundreds if not thousands of auction houses, dealers, and
collectors keep counterfeits of collectible coins on hand, and the ANA
recognizes this.

The ANA has made no such statement. Reid's presentation above is simply a
reading-between-the-lines on his part.

[snip]

Those who elect to keep counterfeits should clearly
identify them on the labels of their holders to help prevent them from
someday inadvertently being sold as genuine coins, says Robert W.
Hoge, former curator at the American Numismatic Association, current
curator at the American Numismatic Society.


US law says that the word "COPY" should be on the item:

(b) The word "COPY" shall be marked upon the item legibly,
conspicuously, and nondeceptively,
and in accordance with the further requirements of these regulations.
(1) The word "COPY" shall appear in capital letters, in the
English language.
(2) The word "COPY" shall be marked on either the obverse or the
reverse surface of the item.
It shall not be marked on the edge of the item.
(3) An imitation numismatic item of incusable material shall be
incused with the word "COPY" in
sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two
millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less
than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction, and a minimum
depth of three-tenths of one
millimeter (0.3 mm) or to one-half (\1/2\) the thickness of the
reproduction, whichever is the lesser.
The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word "COPY" shall be six
millimeters (6.0 mm) or not
less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction.
(4) An imitation numismatic item composed of nonincusable material
shall be imprinted with the
word "COPY" in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not
less than two millimeters (2.0
mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction.
The minimum total horizontal
dimension of the word "COPY" shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not
less than one-half of the
diameter of the reproduction.

[snip]

Vartian, a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World legal columnist, and author
of the book A Legal Guide to Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles,
says it's illegal to own counterfeit coins if your intention is to
defraud others with them (sell them as genuine), and it's illegal to
refuse to surrender them if the government asks you to, which it's
entitled to under the law.

Vartian wrote a book "Legal Guide to Buying And Selling Art And Collectibles",
which Reid may refer to later on. I have a copy of said book. Bought a used one
off amazon. The word "counterfeit" appears in one paragraph in the book, on
pages 28-29. In part:

"Counterfeiting of items such as coins and stamps is prohibited by federal law,
and it is actually a crime to sell counterfeits of such items."

Note that Vartain says nothing about intent, just plain and simple that you
cannot legally sell them.

That's why Vartian and others recommend
that those who maintain black cabinets of counterfeit coins do so
quietly.

Reid has never attributed these supposed remarks of Vartain to anything in
print, nor named the "others".

Others feel, however, that mere possession of counterfeits of
collectible coins is illegal.

The reason being that if they have to be surrendered without need for a
warrent, court order, or other form of "due process", that the requirement to
surrender them on demand equates to ownership being illegal.

[snip]

4. Ring test

Modern silver coins ring when you tap them.

This has been stated to be misleading due to impurities in the alloy of even
modern coins. For some reason, Reid still leaves it in his posting.

[snip]

The following are books about counterfeit U.S. coins:

Get one or more of these books. You can find most of them on ebay over the
course of a month or two. They are well worth the time to read, and can save
you a hundred times the purchase price by with just a single potential purchase
being caught as a fake as a result of the information gained.



--
mark

In the nick of time -- going to see a collection tomorrow where they have a couple of coins I would *really* like to have (by their list, I haven't seen any of them, yet) but one is one that appears to be widely counterfeited. These are just ordinary folks (I presume, anyway), not coin dealers and not con artists, so we're all dealing with a pig in the poke here. THANKS!

"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:34:57 GMT, "Linda"
wrote:

I sent this earlier but I never saw it post, so please forgive if it is a duplicate, but I'm also not seeing any replies. Can anybody give me a short course in how to tell a good, circulated reproduction of a liberty quarter from the real deal?

Michael's answer is the short one, a good one. Here's the long answer
to this (very long), a post I make periodically. Note that the
ownership side of counterfeits is controversial, with some people
getting very emotional about it, which may happen again.


What follows is a distillation of many people's opinions and
observations, including my own. Additions and corrections are
welcomed. This document is copyrighted -- please don't republish
elsewhere. HMTL version available he http://rg.ancients.info/guide.

Counterfeit detection primer (periodic post)

- - -
IN A NUTSHELL: Counterfeit coins are an unavoidable reality in the
numismatic marketplace, particularly with ancient coins though with
modern coins as well. Learning the diagnostics of forgeries as well as
the characteristics of authentic coins, buying from reputable dealers,
avoiding sellers with a no-return policy claiming they're selling
coins from an estate, and buying smart in general can minimize your
exposure. The study of counterfeits, along with protecting you, can
also be interesting in itself.
- - -

Perhaps the most frequent question collectors of ancient coins are
asked by noncollectors is, "How do you know it's real?" The
disconcerting answer sometimes is, "You don't." Not with all coins,
not with certainty.

The fact is, significant numbers of counterfeit ancient coins are sold
as authentic coins. But counterfeiting can be a problem for collectors
of modern coins too. The issue of counterfeits shouldn't deter you
from collecting either ancient or modern coins. The number of ancient
coin fakes on the market is dwarfed by the number of genuine coins,
which were produced in staggering numbers in ancient times. The same
is true with modern coins. But counterfeiting is an issue that any
savvy collector needs to face.

Counterfeit coin detection, particularly with ancient coins, is as
much art as science. Because ancients were struck by hand and because
of the wide variability of their designs, even the best experts are
sometimes fooled. Dealers bought large numbers of counterfeit ancient
coins as authentic coins at the 1999 and 1988 New York International
Numismatic Conventions, coins that only later were discovered to be
forgeries. Many dealers contacted buyers and refunded their money, but
many of these fakes remain on the market.

The most frequently seen counterfeit U.S. coins, according to PCGS's
1997 book Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection, include:

* 1909-S VDB cent
* 1916-D dime
* 1893-S Morgan dollar
* 1955 double die cent
* Saint-Gaudens high-relief double eagle
* 1804 bust dollar
* 1856 flying eagle cent
* Cincinnati commemorative half dollar

Unless you're a specialist, you shouldn't buy any of the above coins
unless they're in the slab of a legitimate grading/authentication
service, such as PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG.

With ancient coins, even low-cost specimens are counterfeited today.
As Wayne Sayles points out in his 2001 book Classical Deception:
Counterfeits, Forgeries and Reproductions of Ancient Coins, you can no
longer assume that it's impractical for someone to make deceptive
fakes of inexpensive coins, including someone living in relative
poverty in Eastern Europe who may have advanced engraving skills or
even a university degree in metallurgy.

Counterfeits Online

Fakes of modern and ancient coins sold on eBay as authentic coins are
a frequent problem, though if you follow the online coin discussion
groups, these fakes are frequently exposed. One common scam is for a
seller to create an auction of a counterfeit coin, or many counterfeit
coins, while preventing people from contacting bidders, which is the
most common way that this kind of fraud is stopped (despite the fact
that doing this is against official eBay policy).

You shouldn't count on eBay to prevent or stop the auction of even the
most blatant counterfeits or prevent sellers with a history of selling
large numbers of counterfeits from engaging in online fraud. eBay has
a policy of noninterference, stating that it's just a venue bringing
buyers and sellers together. You're largely on your own. It's a good
idea to stick with reputable sellers -- you can learn who these are by
asking around online -- and avoid sellers who don't offer return
policies, particularly those claiming to be selling coins from an
estate. The old maxim applies: "If a deal looks too good to be true,
it probably is."

On the other hand, you shouldn't indiscriminately, and irresponsibly,
condemn coins you see online -- online pictures often provide only a
fraction of the information you need to properly evaluate a coin's
authenticity. But there's nothing wrong with questioning a coin
online. If others feel the coin is not suspicious, the seller of the
coin will undoubtedly wind up with favorable publicity, and this can
lead to more bids and a higher selling price.

The coin industry prefers not to discuss too loudly the issue of
counterfeits for fear of scaring off collectors. But knowledge is
power. As a collector, the more you know, the greater the chance
you'll avoid getting taken. Don't overreact and run away. But don't
put your head in the sand either.

Ownership of Counterfeits

The study of counterfeits can actually be an enjoyable part of the
hobby of collecting coins, ancient as well as modern. Some collectors
enjoy creating a "black cabinet" (also called "black museum") of
counterfeit coins for educational purposes, as help in counterfeit
detection, and as examples of the black art of counterfeiting. In his
American Numismatic Association (ANA) video titled "Famous Fakes and
Fakers," Ken Bressett, editor of the Red Book and past president of
the ANA, points out that some counterfeits can be considered "true
numismatic items" that are "enjoyable to study and collect."

The issue of ownership of counterfeit collectable coins, however, is a
controversial one, more so with U.S. coins, which are still legal
tender regardless of their age, than ancient coins. The American
Numismatic Association recommends that you turn in counterfeit coins
to it or the U.S. Secret Service.

But hundreds if not thousands of auction houses, dealers, and
collectors keep counterfeits of collectible coins on hand, and the ANA
recognizes this. Those who elect to keep counterfeits should clearly
identify them on the labels of their holders to help prevent them from
someday inadvertently being sold as genuine coins, says Robert W.
Hoge, former curator at the American Numismatic Association, current
curator at the American Numismatic Society.

The legalities regarding mere possession of these bogus coins aren't
clear. Two areas of U.S. law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18,
Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S. Code,
Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of U.S. and world
coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973 (Title 15, Chapter 48,
Sections 2101 through 2106 of the U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments)
deals with counterfeits of ancient coins.

Nothing in the above statutes says that simple possession of
counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal, and no court in the U.S.
has ever ruled on the legality of this. According to Armen R. Vartian,
the most visible numismatic legal expert in the U.S., "The statutes do
not criminalize the mere possession of counterfeit money."

Vartian, a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World legal columnist, and author
of the book A Legal Guide to Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles,
says it's illegal to own counterfeit coins if your intention is to
defraud others with them (sell them as genuine), and it's illegal to
refuse to surrender them if the government asks you to, which it's
entitled to under the law. That's why Vartian and others recommend
that those who maintain black cabinets of counterfeit coins do so
quietly.

Others feel, however, that mere possession of counterfeits of
collectible coins is illegal. Perhaps the bottom line here is that no
one has ever been arrested or fined for this in the U.S. since the
Secret Service began policing the money supply 138 years ago. Although
the Secret Service has confiscated high-visibility collections of
counterfeits of U.S. coins, this hasn't happened in some 30 years.
It's a non-issue, today, in the eyes of the authorities.

Protecting Yourself from Fakes

The most commonly repeated advice to avoid getting cheated by
unwittingly buying a counterfeit as an authentic coin is to buy from a
respected dealer or auction house who offers a lifetime guarantee of
authenticity with return privileges. But in the age of the Internet,
deals can often be had through eBay buying from fellow collectors who
are upgrading their coins or otherwise selling them off or buying
ancient coins from direct sellers personally bringing them into the
U.S. from Europe. Even here, though, sellers should offer a lifetime
guarantee of authenticity with return privileges in case the coin
later turns out to be fake.

The most common reason a coin is condemned by an expert as being a
forgery is, "It doesn't look right." Dealers who've handled many
thousands of authentic coins are usually (not always) able to pick out
fakes, even if they're not always able to verbalize why. Part of this
involves knowing what authentic coins of a particular type typically
look like. Part of this involves knowing what counterfeits typically
look like.

Indications of a cast counterfeit include:

* A seam around the edge where the two sides of the mold joined
together (it's often filed off, in which case file marks are sometimes
but not always visible)
* Pitting from air bubbles created during the casting process (pitting
may not appear if centrifugal casting was used, and genuine coins
often show some porosity)
* Raised lumps of metal (some genuine ancient coins can show the same
if made from rusty dies)
* Soapy surfaces
* Soft details
* Light weight (or sometimes too heavy)
* The existence of the an identical coin -- not only one made from the
same dies but also one with the same centering, strike, wear patterns,
and surface damage (forgers may add surface marks)

Indications of an electrotype counterfeit include:

* Edge seam
* Light weight (or sometimes too heavy)

Indications of a struck counterfeit include:

* Unrealistic styling
* Incorrect letters
* Overly flat fields, particularly with ancient coins
* Light weight (or sometimes too heavy)
* Wrong metal
* With ancient coins, the absence of any crystallization (some
counterfeits are artificially corroded and aged with acids, while
other times ancient metal is used)

Testing

There are also various quantitative tests you can do, or have done, to
help with counterfeit detection. Often, any one test or tests aren't
conclusive, but they can provide important information.

1. Weighing a coin, then comparing it with the common weight range for
that coin.

2. Measuring a coin's diameter, then also comparing it with the common
range for that coin.

3. Specific gravity testing

This is a useful if not infallible test. You need to compare a coin's
weight in two different media, such as air and water, using a
precision scale. However, accuracy can be compromised by tiny air
bubbles adhering to the coin's surface and, with ancient coins,
internal porosity and voids within the coin's interior.

The specific gravity of gold is 19.3, silver is 10.5, copper is 8.8,
bronze is 8.7-7.8 (varies with how much tin, lead, and other metals
it's alloy with), brass is 8.6-8.4 (varies with how much zinc it's
alloyed with), lead is 11.4, tin is 7.3, zinc (cast) is 6.9, iron
(cast) is 7.2, and aluminum is 2.6.

4. Ring test

Modern silver coins ring when you tap them. Modern non-silver coins
don't, not in the same way. Ancient silver coins don't, not in the
same way. With ancient coins, the reason is crystallization, which
results when the silver alloy leaches copper and other impurities over
time, causing voids between the silver grains. You can sometimes see
under magnification feather-like crystals on the coin's surface,
especially near the edges, though other times the crystallization is
completely internal and invisible.

To perform a ring test, balance the coin on the tip of your finger and
tap it gently with another coin. With modern coins, you can wear a
cotton glove to prevent fingerprints. You need to be careful you don't
drop the coin or tap too hard. Highly crystallized ancient coins can
break easily. If the coin emits a long resonating ring, like a bell,
this indicates that it's a modern silver coin. If it's an ancient
coin, this indicates it hasn't become crystallized, that it's likely a
modern forgery, because crystallization dampens the ring. If the coin
rings for only a second or two, this indicates it may be only slightly
crystallized. If the coin emits a tink and doesn't resonate, this
indicates it may be moderately crystallized. If the coin emits a thud,
this indicates it may be heavily crystallized.

The ring test is far from foolproof, however. Sometimes forgers use
the flans of authentic, though inexpensive, ancient coins to produce
old-metal counterfeits of expensive ancient coins, but this typically
happens only with rare or otherwise pricey specimens. Counterfeits
made of new silver having small, thick flans don't resonate as well as
larger, thinner coins. Counterfeits of new silver may not ring at all
if the flan is cracked, occluded with a gas bubble, or filled with
another substance. Cast or electrotype counterfeits made of new silver
also may not ring. Heavily alloyed silver coins or coins made of
bronze, lead, or other base metals will also not ring like pure or
nearly pure silver coins.

5. Non-destructive x-ray elemental analysis with a scanning electron
microscope

This is another useful if not infallible test that analyzes the
elemental composition of a coin, but only at its surface to a depth of
a few micrometers. The coin is bombarded with electrons, producing
x-rays. Because each element has a unique x-ray signature, it's
possible to detect which elements comprise the coin's surface, down to
a sensitivity of about 0.1 percent (trace elements may not be
detected).

Authentication

Often, a dealer will agree to look at a coin you're questioning,
particularly a dealer you've bought from in the past, and offer his
opinion regarding its authenticity.

All of the established, legitimate grading services that deal with
U.S. coins provide authentication along with grading, including:

PCGS (Professional Coin Grading Service)
http://www.pcgs.com

NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of America)
http://www.ngccoin.com

ANACS (Amos Certification Service)
http://www.anacs.com

ICG (Independent Coin Grading Co.)
http://www.icgcoin.com

The following services provide ancient coin authentication:

ACCS (Ancient Coin Certification Service)
http://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html

IBSCC (International Bureau for the Suppression of Counterfeit Coins)
http://www.iapn.ch

The British Museum, Department of Coins and Medals
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/cm/cmhome.html

Education

Learning about counterfeits can be fun, in addition to protecting you.
The following are books about counterfeit U.S. coins:

Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection
PCGS
Ballantine Publishing Group, 1997

Counterfeit Detection Reference Guide
Bill Fivaz
Stanton Printing, 1997

Detecting Counterfeit and Altered U.S. Coins: A Correspondence Course
J.P. Martin
American Numismatic Association, 1996

Official Guide to Detecting Altered & Counterfeit U.S. Coins &
Currency
Marc Hudgeons
House of Collectibles, 1981

Standard Catalog of Counterfeit and Altered United States Coins
Virgil Hancock and Larry Spanbauer
Sanford J. Durst, 1979

Counterfeit, Mis-struck, and Unofficial U.S. Coins: A Guide for the
Detection of Cast and Struck Counterfeits, Electro-types, and Altered
Coins
Don Taxay
Arco Pub. Co., 1963

The following Web sites provide information and/or photos of fake
ancient coins:

Calgary's Modern Fakes of Ancient Coins
Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/fakes.htm

Barry & Darling Ancient Coins' Counterfeits and Counterfeiters
Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.ancient-times.com/newsletters/n13/n13.html

Doug Smith's Fakes
Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.ancientcoinmarket.com/ds/fakes/fakes.html

Twelve Caesar's Fakes & Forgeries
Information and photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.12caesars.com/Fakes___For...forgeries.html

Dennis Kroh's Ancient Coins & Modern Fakes
Information about fakes of ancient coins
http://members.aol.com/kroh/fakes.html

CGB-CFG Fakes
Photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://www.cgb.fr/monnaies/articles/faux/indexgb.html

Jencek's Modern Forgeries of Ancient Coins
Photos of fakes of ancient coins
http://ancient-coins.com/forgery/forgery.htm

Forgeries of Ancient Roman and Greek Coins
Photos of fakes of ancient coins offered for sale as authentic coins
on eBay
http://www.chijanofuji.com/ancientforgeries.html

Fakes Gallery
Photos mostly of Slavey replicas of ancient coins
http://www.ancientcoinart.com/fakes_gallery.html

Slavey Replicas
Photos of Slavey replicas of ancient coins
http://people2.clarityconnect.com/we...ei_repros.html

Discussing Fakes

The following are two e-mail discussion groups specifically about
counterfeit coins:

CoinForgeryDiscussionList
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CoinForgeryDiscussionList

ACFDL (Ancient Coin Forgeries Discussion List)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACFDL

The Usenet discussion group rec.collecting.coins can be a good
resource for getting opinions about questionable U.S. coins. You can
access it through a newsreader such as Forte Agent, e-mail program
with newsreading capabilities such as Microsoft Outlook Express, or
the Web through Google Groups at http://groups.google.com.

More Information

Here's a periodical about recently discovered U.S., world, and ancient
counterfeit coins:

Counterfeit Coin Bulletin
American Numismatic Association (ANA) and the International
Association of Professional Numismatists (IAPN)
http://www.money.org/publicationsdept.html

Here are three Web sites I've put together about counterfeit coins:

Counterfeit Draped Bust Dollars
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/reidgo...ts/page_7.html

Bulgarian School Counterfeits of Apollonia Pontika Drachms
http://www.rg.cointalk.org/bulgarian_school

Deks: Three Ancient Greek Dekadrachms, Fake and Real
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/reidgold/deks

Three Fourees
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/reidgold/fourees

Ultimately, as long as you're careful, you shouldn't fret over the
possibility of getting fooled by counterfeits. As Sayles points out,
virtually all serious collectors of ancient coins, for instance, will
sooner or later unwittingly add a fake to their collection, and this
is not necessarily a sign of naivete. With U.S. coins, the grading
services have greatly reduced the chances of being cheated with
high-end specimens.


--

Coin Collecting: Consumer Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos