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#21
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J. A. M. wrote:
We should be asking for God's forgiveness, not claiming he is on our side. JAM You should be using this NG for discussing coins. Not politics or religion. THAT is what you should be doing. Please move your thoughts on Iraq or any other US politics to a more appropriate NG. IM |
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#22
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"Shystev99" wrote in message ... Gee, I thought that we invaded Iraq because Saddam was involved in the 9/11 attack and had WMD's ready to use on the US and Israel. See, Here is a big part of the problem. You guys on the left keep bitching and moaning about Iraq when by your own words you have no idea why you are bitching. Nobody ever said Saddam was involved with 9/11, What they did argue was that Saddam had Ties to Al Queda and MAY have WMD. See this is where the left likes to distort the issue because you guys like to think Al Queda revolves around 9/11. Wrong. Dick Cheney stated publicly on television, recorded for posterity, that Saddam was involved in 9/11. Prior to the election, 66% of people who stated that they were going to vote for Bush also stated they believed that Saddam was involved in 9/11. Global intelligence from multiple sources suggested that Saddam had or was creating WMD, Bill Clinton and John Kerry both saw this evidence and agreed something had to be done. The difference with Bill Clinton and John Kerry is neither one of them would have ever done it because neither one of them can wipe their own ass without first taking a poll to see if we the voting public approved first. Their popularity, reputations and approval ratings to them are MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than the national security of this country. Saddam was a known liar and known to want to and was building WMD in the past, Before the 1991 Gulf war our intelligence suggested he was 3 years away from completion of a Nuclear bomb. After the war we found out it wasn't 3 years but 6 months from completion. This is all documented. Your rant about Clinton and Kerry is without merit, spawned by your own political world view. While intelligence worldwide and popular belief stated that Saddam had or was working on WMD, that alone is not justification to invade. One cannot be arrested for mearly contemplating a crime, or even say, taking a gun into a bank with the intention to rob the bank. If a person did take a gun into a bank but determined not to commit the robbery, no crime has been committed. It is the same with states. To act pre-emptively based on the statement that weapons are at hand and may be used would in turn justify a pre-emptive attack on the United States because we have the largest cache of WMD in the world. Now with that knowledge I ask you a simple question, When the evidence and intelligence from the late 90's up to 2003 leading up to this war suggested he may be building WMD and was known to have his leadership meeting with Al-Queda operatives what was Bush honestly supposed to do? Was he supposed to sit around with his thumb up his ass and hope to hell the intel from NUMEROUS nations and sources was wrong? Was he supposed to wait for another attack and thousands, If not hundreds of thousands bodybags for our fellow citizens? The left would have massacred him either way REGARDLESS of what decision he made. So you see he made the decision not to wait, not to cross his fingers and pray but to go in and stop the problem before it became fatal for our security. That's something the extreme left will never understand though because they don't care about the facts, To them its about power and if the evidence points to something that may effect that power then SCREW the evidence. To them leadership is about taking a poll to see what is popular, And just because a decision isn't popular doesn't mean it should be ignored. That separates leaders like Bush from the little bitches like Clinton and Kerry who are more interested in kissing your ass as opposed to protecting it. Again, your pithy comments are steeped in your own personal political mythology, that being that the "Left" or "Liberals" don't care for the people. Roosevelt was a liberal, so was LBJ. Both led us into wars to protect "The American Way." Consider this, Saddam, evil as he may have been, was keeping Al-Queda out of Iraq. He may have had meetings with operatives, but Colin Powell is meeting with Representatives of North Korea. This doesn't indicate an alliance is being forged. Saddam was keeping Iran, Syria, and Russia in check in the region. Removing Saddam has created a power vacuum that we are currently unable to fill. The goal of creating a friendly government in Iraq is to replace the void in American presence in central Asia left by the Shah of Iran's removal following the 1979 revolution. Oil would be secondary to the military presence, but only by a slight margin. On a personal note, I believe it is a mistake to speak of the private sector and public sector in US socio-political realm. There is a private and public realm that we all participate in. The private realm is my bank account, the public realm is how my bank does business. The private realm is how I worship, the public realm is the beliefs stated by a religious institution. The private realm is my job, the public realm is how my employer conducts his business. The private realm is what I do in my bedroom, the public realm is how I live my public life. The Democrats want to regulate the public realm and leave the private realm private. Republicans want to regulate the private realm and leave the public realm alone. Which makes you feel secure? |
#23
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The Democrats want to regulate the public realm and leave the private realm
private. Republicans want to regulate the private realm and leave the public realm alone. Which makes you feel secure? Well, you asked! The Republicans, and apparently 51% of the voters. You are entitled to your opinion and to voice it. Thats what makes this country so great. However, seeing as how this is a COIN forum, I will that you, and ALL posters would keep their political opinions on political pages. Bush won, Kerry lost. Get over it. I am sick of hearing Kerry whiners and Bush gloaters. |
#24
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On 05 Nov 2004 04:36:59 GMT, (Bill Yates) wrote:
Bill Yates Rare Coins Check my ebay listings Not likely. BLReed To e-mail me, remove the obvious spam trap. For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r Cool things and Bust Coin Forum: http://www.byronreed.com |
#25
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"Skip Waisner" wrote in message ...
Bill, Let's first assume that you are correct, and that George Bush is directly responsible for the deaths of 100,000 innocent Iraqis (which I would say is probably a little high for civilian casualties, even for Liberal estimates). Let's also assume now that Bush had never given the order to oust a ruthless dictator, who, by the way, has killed more innocent Iraqis than any outside force (American, Iranian, etc.). How long would it be before you posted to this group saying "the madness has to stop, we have to do something about a ruthless dictator who is killing his own people?" I hope that you would eventually get to that point. You seem to be missing the point. The reason we were going in to Iraq was to dis-arm Sadam Husein of weapons of mass destruction and to rid Iraq of all the al-Qeda training camps. Well whadya know, there weren't no WMD and there weren't no links to al-Qeda. Can you say "subterfuge"? Freeing the Iraqi's was the last thing on W's mind when we went in to this quagmire. Kind of like when Bush Sr. didn't march into Baghdad in '91. Sadam Husein was waving his ass in front of the US and it ****ed W off. If you really believe that the poor suffering people of Iraq needed the US military to rescue them then let me pose this question to you: When are we going to rescue the poor oppressed people of: The Sudan, Zimbabwe, Turkmenistan, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Myamar, Cuba, China, Iran, etc? Keep in mind that very few people with millions of dollars give a rats ass about the poor oppressed people unless those poor oppressed people happen to be inhabiting a plot of land with valuable resources. Iraq just happened to be a convienent enough of a excuse for Haliburton to rape the treasury of the US. Dick Cheney ain't smiling for no reason. But I digress on this coin collecting group. When am I going to see the new Keelboad nickles here? I mean I've seen 1 handshake nickle. Who is hoarding them? Andy |
#26
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When are we going to rescue the poor oppressed
people of: The Sudan, Zimbabwe, Turkmenistan, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Myamar, Cuba, China, Iran, etc? When they invade a neighboring country that is one of our allies? Taken one at a time: Sudan-who knows? We might! Zimbabwe-and be accused that the only reason we are there is to help white farmers and take their diamonds? Turkmenistan-huh? Saudi Arabia-er, one of our allies, dontcha know. North Korea-hmmm be careful for what you wish for, you might just get it. Myanmar-aka Burma, I don't think so. Cuba-all they have to do is hold free elections and diplomatic relations will be reinstated, even if they elect Castro, but they have to be free elections. China- are you out of your mind? Iran-WMD? See North Korea comment. Etc-Canada and Germany make good beer, I say we go there! So, are you saying that removing Saddam was a bad thing? Although no WMD have been found (except that artillery shell with nerve gas), didn't Saddam have the capability and plans to create them? Hasn't he used them in the past? Nobody except the press has said that there were connections between Iraq and al-Qaeda, although their politicians did have meetings with with them. You asked some good questions, now let me ask you a few. Are the Iraqis better off now than they were 4 years ago? Even with civilian casualties due to the insurgents, didn't Saddam purge his political and religious rivals? Didn't he use WMD on the Kurds? Will they will be able to vote for the first time? Are they are receiving better medical care and education than ever before? Will their infrastructure will be rebuilt, much like the Marshall plan? Is the fact that they are buying satellite dishes left and right and being able to see news other than state sponsored al-Jazeera bad? My personal opinion is that we should get out of Iraq as soon as possible, and it will be possible when the nation is free. The insurgents are not helping their own cause one bit. If they want the US out of their country, then they should lay down their arms, hold a free election, and out go the troops! A free Iraq is better than under a dictatorship or US occupation. |
#28
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Nobody ever said Saddam was involved with 9/11
Yeah, it was just assumed. Go to Gallup.com. In March 2003 63 percent of republicans believed that Saddam was *personally* involved in the 9/11 attacks. After a more than year, in October 2004, that number was down -- to 62 percent! When people get all their news from Fox news and Tush Limbaugh, that's what happens. There was a huge correlation between education and this belief. Ignorance rules the Right. --Keith "Shystev99" wrote in message ... Gee, I thought that we invaded Iraq because Saddam was involved in the 9/11 attack and had WMD's ready to use on the US and Israel. See, Here is a big part of the problem. You guys on the left keep bitching and moaning about Iraq when by your own words you have no idea why you are bitching. Nobody ever said Saddam was involved with 9/11, What they did argue was that Saddam had Ties to Al Queda and MAY have WMD. See this is where the left likes to distort the issue because you guys like to think Al Queda revolves around 9/11. 9/11 was simply 1 Al Queda operation within a larger group of murderers. overall I suspect maybe 1/4 of 1% of Al Queda followers and Supporters knew about 9/11 beforehand. That doesn't make them any less guilty of being part or supporting a terrorist group. Global intelligence from multiple sources suggested that Saddam had or was creating WMD, Bill Clinton and John Kerry both saw this evidence and agreed something had to be done. The difference with Bill Clinton and John Kerry is neither one of them would have ever done it because neither one of them can wipe their own ass without first taking a poll to see if we the voting public approved first. Their popularity, reputations and approval ratings to them are MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than the national security of this country. Saddam was a known liar and known to want to and was building WMD in the past, Before the 1991 Gulf war our intelligence suggested he was 3 years away from completion of a Nuclear bomb. After the war we found out it wasn't 3 years but 6 months from completion. This is all documented. Now with that knowledge I ask you a simple question, When the evidence and intelligence from the late 90's up to 2003 leading up to this war suggested he may be building WMD and was known to have his leadership meeting with Al-Queda operatives what was Bush honestly supposed to do? Was he supposed to sit around with his thumb up his ass and hope to hell the intel from NUMEROUS nations and sources was wrong? Was he supposed to wait for another attack and thousands, If not hundreds of thousands bodybags for our fellow citizens? The left would have massacred him either way REGARDLESS of what decision he made. So you see he made the decision not to wait, not to cross his fingers and pray but to go in and stop the problem before it became fatal for our security. That's something the extreme left will never understand though because they don't care about the facts, To them its about power and if the evidence points to something that may effect that power then SCREW the evidence. To them leadership is about taking a poll to see what is popular, And just because a decision isn't popular doesn't mean it should be ignored. That separates leaders like Bush from the little bitches like Clinton and Kerry who are more interested in kissing your ass as opposed to protecting it. Steve |
#29
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**** you. I fought in the Korean War. I was in the reserves in Vietnam. I
love this country, but I will not support this government when it has been taken over by the PNAC crowd. ----------- Bill Yates Rare Coins Check my ebay listings http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...ems&userid=*by |
#30
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 09:47:38 -0500, Michael Azzam
wrote: Bill Yates wrote: 100,000 innocent Iraqi people have been murdered by George W Bush. We should lower our heads in SHAME that the American people voted to give this criminal 4 more years. God Save America. ----------- Bill Yates Rare Coins Check my ebay listings http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...ems&userid=*by Move to canada, let the door hit you on the way out. Oh yeah, 337,000 more jobs last month! Right, tell the whole story about how many of these jobs went to folks working 2 & 3 jobs to make ends meet! Sanford |
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