Electrum

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:08:53 +1000, "A.Gent"
wrote:

Who gets to decide that specialists in the subject (metallurgists) should be
excluded from the debate?

Nobody is talking about excluding anybody from any debate. What I'm
talking about is common usage -- how words are used and what they're
understood to mean. Numismatists use the word electrum to mean a
certain thing. This is a numismatic discussion group, the Celator is a
numismatic publication, and the subject matter at hand is ...
numismatics! What point does it serve to change the definition of a
word used in a numismatic context some others in another context use
it differently? That's my point.

The only purpose it served with Michael's article was to allow him to
include many more coins as "electrum" coins than he would have been
able to do otherwise. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this,
but he should have been clear that he was changing the meaning of
"electrum" from how everyone else in numismatics understands the word
and has used the word for the past two thousand years.

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On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:58:25 +1000, "A.Gent"
wrote:

Unless you lived in Britain during the 18th century, when you could be
hanged for passing off .90 as "silver".

You see?
Differect place, different standard.
Same word, different meaning.
Standards are neither writ in stone nor cast in gold.

Good point, but not particularly relevant, and you didn't answer my
question. Here it is again: Would you write an article about debased
coinage through history and include the entire run of circulating U.S.
silver coins in it?

U.S. silver coins are in fact made of "silver," as this word is
understood in the U.S. And since the U.S. is the world's dominant
power, what the Brits think about this means squat. Besides, our coins
are nicer than yours. And then there's the War of Independence and the
War of 1812, which you've totally neglected to mention. And Lizzy on
all those coins. Come on!

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On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:29:17 +1000, "A.Gent"
wrote:

Have cake...

...eat it too.

Pay attention: As I said, Michael used an unarticulated definition of
electrum that's much broader than is used by other numismatists. This
isn't that hard.

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On 13 Oct 2003 13:19:09 GMT, (Ankaaz) wrote:

Michael's article on electrum is close to 5,000 words long. He devotes about
400 words to the topic of "modern electrum" in which he states

I'm going to have to repeat myself because you're not understanding.
Michael's overbroad (unarticulated) definition of electrum allowed him
to include many more coins as "electrum" coins than others consider to
be electrum, allowed him to make the statement, which he couldn't have
made otherwise, that electrum coins were the most common form of
"gold" coins under about 330 BC. No one else in numismatics is saying
that because everyone else is numismatics uses the Pliny definition of
electrum.

The key point here, not fully discussed, is that electrum was
discarded in most of the Greek world because its purity and intrinsic
value were much more difficult to ascertain than relatively pure gold
and silver. This wasn't conducive for trade. Thus, coins of relatively
pure gold and silver replaced electrum coins. Colin Kraay and others
talk about this. Again, they're talking about electrum as it's
commonly defined, not about Michael's brand new definition of it.
Kraay talks about how electrum was abandoned by Lydia, which had been
its principal supplier to Greek city states who had been using it,
then electrum was abandoned by many of these city states in the second
half of the sixth century. Not all. But Kraay mentions that except for
several northern mints and two Anatolian mints, electrum virtually
ceased to be used.

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On 13 Oct 2003 15:50:48 GMT, (Lyntoy1) wrote:

Here I quote Alan Williams directly that he believes that electrum is being
used to terrorize heroin addicts in Panama (HIS words, not mine).

Funny! But the rationality of the above comment isn't far removed from
other comments he's made. Interestingly, talking about electrum,
counterfeits, deception, and all this, one of the key debating points
in the literature about the first coins is why they were made out of
electrum. Some feel it's because it allowed ruling authorities to
cheat, to deceive people that the money had a higher intrinsic worth
than it actually did.

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Reid wrote: "I'm going to have to repeat myself because you're not
understanding."

Oh, I understand all too well. And drop the condescending attitude.


Reid: "Michael's overbroad (unarticulated) definition of electrum allowed him
to include many more coins as "electrum" coins than others consider to be
electrum..."

You slay me. Unarticulated? What are you, a mind reader? Overbroad? If
you're referring to his comment about some metallurgists calling -any- alloy of
gold and silver "electrum," then you're again using your typical underhanded
tactics to bamboozle the readers of this thread. This oblique reference came
at the very end of the article.

In the majority of the text, Michael offers these examples of "electrum":
Sardis (45% silver), Phokaia (55.5%-46% gold), Mytilene (43% gold), Kyzikos
(52%-27% gold)...

What would -you- call these coins?

Admit it, Reid. You've been bested yet again by Michael and you just can't
stand it, can you?


Anka Z
Co-president of the once thriving, but now defunct, Tommy John Fan Club.
Go, Lake County Captains!

Okay. Two days and 45 messages in I get that there are
several definitions of electrum. Some work fine in the
coin world, some don't, and they are all arbitrary one
way or another.

Any alloy of gold and silver. Easy in metallurgy but
not all that usefull in coins because nearly all coins
that contain any gold would be qualified as electrum
because 24K gold is too soft so it does'n last. There
are modern 24K gold bullion issues that wouldn't count
as electrum by this defintion but essentailly all gold
circulation coins would count, right?

An alloy with 20%+ of silver. I take it this means a
fixed percentage that's more than the modern common
sterling and 90% ratios. Okay. So are their modern
coins like this? I suppose on where you draw the line.
This one would be interesting from the perspective of
historical coin debasement I suspect. I've read of
gold-dipped coins being issued as nations decline, so
gradually diluted alloys must have been issued over the
centuries, too. In today's world without even circulating
silver coins in most parts of the world the idea of
mixing sliver into a coin can easily be seen as a good
thing, chuckle.

An *uncontrolled* alloy of gold and sliver. I like this
definition because it's probably how the oldest coins
were made. Gold nuggest in there natural form melted to
remove the obvious chunks then poured into mostly-fixed
sizes and an image hammered into them. Is that how the
very oldest gold coins were made? This one would be
interesting from a historical perspective. Once it was
discovered how to purify gold, the initial incentive
would be to do so, then alloy with just enough silver or
copper to add some strength. Seeing where and when coins
switched from nonexistant to uncontrolled electrum alloys
to controlled alloys would partially track the evolution of
metalurgy across history.

Other than the fun of bickering over defintions, did I get
the major points down? The metal used shouldn't effect
the image, so I explictly left out the artwork and writing
systems used on coins.

Other than the fun of bickering over defintions, did I get
the major points down?
No! I am not sure how you missed the connection to Panamanian heroin addiction,
but please pay closer attention to these threads. There was even an Ashcroft
reference...but I am still decoding that one with my ring.
Mike
Inquiring mind

On 13 Oct 2003 13:15:36 -0700, (Doug Freyburger)
wrote:

Okay. Two days and 45 messages in

Mea culpa. This stuff gets debated, sometimes furiously, in the
literature as well. The debates happen because much of the knowledge
we have, the further you go back in time, is based on informed
speculation rather than hard evidence.

I get that there are
several definitions of electrum.

Only one definition of electrum is used for numismatics, only one
that's commonly used, anyway.

Any alloy of gold and silver. Easy in metallurgy but
not all that usefull in coins because nearly all coins
that contain any gold would be qualified as electrum
because 24K gold is too soft so it does'n last.

Bingo.

There
are modern 24K gold bullion issues that wouldn't count
as electrum by this defintion but essentailly all gold
circulation coins would count, right?

I don't know much of anything about world gold coins, but I'd guess
that some 24k gold coins have been minted to circulate, though a small
minority because of the durability issue. I do know that in the
ancient world, after electrum fell out of favor in most minting
authorities because of its uncertain intrinsic value, the gold that
was used for coinage was as pure as could be refined using existing
technology.

An *uncontrolled* alloy of gold and sliver. I like this
definition because it's probably how the oldest coins
were made.

This would seem to be logical, but actually the gold/silver ratio of
the first coins, Lydian trites anyway, was tightly controlled, very
close to 55/45 percent, as was their weight. Other, slightly later
electrum coins had other gold/silver ratios. Naturally occurring
electrum from western Anatolia, then and now, has a higher percentage
of gold, 70 to 90 percent. So these coins were made of an artificial
alloy, with silver added.

Gold nuggest in there natural form melted to
remove the obvious chunks then poured into mostly-fixed
sizes and an image hammered into them. Is that how the
very oldest gold coins were made?

In Lydia, where the first coinage is thought to have been invented, by
most, gold was sifted from rivers and streams using sheepskins.
Interestingly, this likely gave rise to the myth of the Golden Fleece.

This one would be
interesting from a historical perspective. Once it was
discovered how to purify gold

The technology to purify gold existed for at least two millennia
before the minting of the first coins.

Seeing where and when coins
switched from nonexistant to uncontrolled electrum alloys
to controlled alloys would partially track the evolution of
metalurgy across history.

Most scholars believe that the first coins of pure gold and silver --
bimetallism -- were minted in Lydia by Kroisos (Croisus) sometime
after the first coins were invented there by his predecessor, or one
of his predecessors. The expression "rich as Croisus," incidentally,
came about in part because of all the gold that went into his coins.

Other than the fun of bickering over defintions, did I get
the major points down?

Here's a page I put up about this:

http://rg.ancients.info/lion

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Coin Collecting: Consumer Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Lyntoy1 wrote:

Other than the fun of bickering over defintions, did I get
the major points down?
No! I am not sure how you missed the connection to Panamanian heroin addiction,
but please pay closer attention to these threads. There was even an Ashcroft
reference...but I am still decoding that one with my ring.
Mike
Inquiring mind

Is panamanian heroin a natural mixture or is it chopped as a cheat of
the panamanian populace?

Show Your Work.

Give three examples of a Pliny Porcupine.

Expound.

Alan
'ex-ounce'