Well known contemporary counterfeit?

Nick- or anyone else- is this a good example of a bogo?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1837-REMAKE-BUST...L-K_W0QQitemZ2
90062075866QQihZ019QQcategoryZ11969QQrdZ1QQcmdZVie wItem

Aram

"Aram Haroutunian" wrote in message
...
Nick- or anyone else- is this a good example of a bogo?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1837-REMAKE-BUST...L-K_W0QQitemZ2
90062075866QQihZ019QQcategoryZ11969QQrdZ1QQcmdZVie wItem

Aram

The real McCoy has the denomination as 50 CENTS. So this is more of a
fantasy.

Mr. Jaggers

In , on 12/18/2006
at 02:31 AM, "Aram Haroutunian" said:

Nick- or anyone else- is this a good example of a bogo?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1837-REMAKE-BUST...L-K_W0QQitemZ2
90062075866QQihZ019QQcategoryZ11969QQrdZ1QQcmdZVi ewItem

Yup. That's a very common type ... one of the MOST common. I'll see if I
can't pin an exact Davignon number to it later this evening. However, it's
one of my favorite kinds of bogos ... a "wrong type for the year" deal.
Let's see if I have one close to that, and then a pic of it:

http://www.mr2ice.com/coins/bogos/tns/c1837-2b.htm

Here's an 1838 of the same type:

http://www.mr2ice.com/coins/bogos/tns/c1838-3c.htm

The 2b and 3c are Davignon designations, from "the" reference.

Now, I HAVE seen a couple of these in dealer cases as genuine. And I've
informed every dealer that they were fake, and not a one was removed or
relabeled. And it's so obvious to a Real Collector. If you're fooled by
one of these, you really are an uninformed novice. Note, too, that these
are so common they really AREN'T worth more than the real pieces. I quite
buying these types, as I have great examples already, but I'd value them at
between $10 and 20. As I say this, I see it's already up to 22.50. Hmmm.
I'll have to break out the reference now just to see if it's a known type or
not.

Oh. Bogos are treated in a way similar to genuines in that the reference
attempts to match an obverse "die" or design with a specific reverse. So,
2/B means it's known obverse 2 mated with reverse B. And, as with genuines,
sometimes one side is paired with multiple types of the other side.


Nick

"Nick Knight" wrote in message
...
In , on 12/18/2006
at 02:31 AM, "Aram Haroutunian" said:

Nick- or anyone else- is this a good example of a bogo?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1837-REMAKE-BUST...-L-K_W0QQitemZ
2
90062075866QQihZ019QQcategoryZ11969QQrdZ1QQcmdZVi ewItem

Yup. That's a very common type ... one of the MOST common. I'll see if I
can't pin an exact Davignon number to it later this evening. However,
it's
one of my favorite kinds of bogos ... a "wrong type for the year" deal.
Let's see if I have one close to that, and then a pic of it:

http://www.mr2ice.com/coins/bogos/tns/c1837-2b.htm

Here's an 1838 of the same type:

http://www.mr2ice.com/coins/bogos/tns/c1838-3c.htm

The 2b and 3c are Davignon designations, from "the" reference.

Now, I HAVE seen a couple of these in dealer cases as genuine. And I've
informed every dealer that they were fake, and not a one was removed or
relabeled. And it's so obvious to a Real Collector. If you're fooled by
one of these, you really are an uninformed novice. Note, too, that these
are so common they really AREN'T worth more than the real pieces. I quite
buying these types, as I have great examples already, but I'd value them
at
between $10 and 20. As I say this, I see it's already up to 22.50. Hmmm.
I'll have to break out the reference now just to see if it's a known type
or
not.

Oh. Bogos are treated in a way similar to genuines in that the reference
attempts to match an obverse "die" or design with a specific reverse. So,
2/B means it's known obverse 2 mated with reverse B. And, as with
genuines,
sometimes one side is paired with multiple types of the other side.


Nick
===============
Y'know what? I can see the allure here better than before. I enjoy
collecting
errors and varieties which illustrate the mistakes we all make- the foibles
of
those trying to achieve perfection, if you will. Especially when the
mistake is made by
a government agency- a reminder that government workers are, after all, just
people
like us. Mistakes often make me feel a kinship to the person who erred,
particularly
when the error did not result in horrific circumstances and consequences.

To go to all that trouble to make a counterfeit coin to buy stuff with way
back in
1837 or 1838, only to wind up with the wrong design for the year- wait-
that's what's coming out of China today, isn't it? In a lot of cases.
So, down the road, those "modern contemporary" Chinese pieces will become
further reminders of the common human condition- that is, we all make
mistakes.
But to have your mistake immortalised in a metal disc forever, or until it's
worn smooth, adds a bit of zest, methinks.
This raises another issue, I think. We tend to think that a counterfeiter
who
uses the wrong design for the type or year is just stupid. Truth be told,
there are a myriad of reasons for the pairings to be wrong- including that
the person doing the work was just practicing, he (or she) didn't care,
or possibly that these are, after all little works of art, so who would care
whether or not the right design had been used. How about "artistic
license?"
Or living dangerously (weren't counterfeiters hanged?). Or being bored
yet talented?
Just a few thoughts.
Aram.

In , on 12/17/2006
at 10:00 PM, "Nick Knight" said:

Nick- or anyone else- is this a good example of a bogo?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1837-REMAKE-BUST...L-K_W0QQitemZ2
90062075866QQihZ019QQcategoryZ11969QQrdZ1QQcmdZV iewItem

Yup. That's a very common type ... one of the MOST common. I'll see if I
can't pin an exact Davignon number to it later this evening. However, it's
one of my favorite kinds of bogos ... a "wrong type for the year" deal.
Let's see if I have one close to that, and then a pic of it:

http://www.mr2ice.com/coins/bogos/tns/c1837-2b.htm

Here's an 1838 of the same type:

http://www.mr2ice.com/coins/bogos/tns/c1838-3c.htm

Well, isn't that interesting. This common bogo actually sold for $65! As a
"real" bust half, it wouldn't have come anywhere near that. As a bogo (and
I never did check for the exact variety, can't find my reference ... it's
here somewhere!), and an apparent common one at that, it went for $65.
Hmmmmm.

Perhaps I should sort through mine and see if I have some dupes!

Nick

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:49:49 GMT, in (e) wrote:

mine was 4x more than you thought too, nick. maybe the
market is hot?

Maybe this market appreciation is a result of all the attention
counterfeits are getting here. g

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

In , on 12/20/2006
at 12:49 AM, in (e) said:

mine was 4x more than you thought too, nick. maybe the
market is hot?

Well, seeing as I haven't actually won any even when bidding in quite some
time, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate! But then, I still would never have
paid more than $20 (if that) for that particular piece. I wish I had kept a
pic of yours. All I know is that this one that just sold is common as the
real ones!

Nick