Da Book

Hi,

As a newbie to both this group and pens I keep seeing 'Da Book' mentioned as almost a
bible on this and another groups. Can some one tell me what the real title is and the
author so I can have a look?

Thanks,

Mike

Michael Oates wrote:
As a newbie to both this group and pens I keep seeing 'Da Book' mentioned
as almost a bible on this and another groups. Can some one tell me what
the real title is and the author so I can have a look?


Geez, I dunno Mike, the author is kind of shy.
I'm not sure if you'll be able to coax him out of hiding. ; )

Michael Oates wrote:

Hi,

As a newbie to both this group and pens I keep seeing 'Da Book' mentioned as almost a
bible on this and another groups. Can some one tell me what the real title is and the
author so I can have a look?

email me for all the details I see tha author
daily. In a mirror. If it doesn't crack first. Frank

Subject: Da Book
From: Michael Oates
Date: Fri, Sep 12, 2003 3:24 PM
Hi,

As a newbie to both this group and pens I keep seeing 'Da Book' mentioned as
almost a
bible on this and another groups. Can some one tell me what the real title is
and the
author so I can have a look?

Thanks,
Mike

Da Book is a compilation of instruction, repair, and other materials gathered
by Dubiel and titiled Fountain Pens, The Complete Guide to Repair and
Restoration. It is stated on the cover that the book is “The Only
Comprehensive Manual For Making Vintage Writing Instruments Look and Perform
Like New!.

Dubiel is considered the author of this book ,but editor is the more
appropriate (and generous) description of his function.

The compilation covers Parker, Sheaffer, etc. and is comprehensive. The
descriptive word vintage is key.

Here is the first catch. These materials were written for employees of those
companies who were trained in the repair of a particular company’s pens. The
repairmen used them as a reference while on the job (although, I imagine that,
like many jobs, certain repairs, if not all, became pro forma). They were not
intended for the use by the public.

It is like and contains the detail of ,say, a Volkswagen-trained mechanic’s
shop manual, plus another manufacturer’s manual plus, etc. .......although
not one iota as voluminous as that combination would be.

Here is the second, and, by far, most pertinent : These repairmen had parts
available to them. If a pen was damaged while being repaired, a new
feed,section, whatever, was within, probably, arm’s length.

Unless you intend to invest in the repair of pens (the book, the tools, the
time, the whole nine yards, and then want to compete for vintage parts), this
is a waste of say (well it is $18.95 on the Bay) of at least $18.95 plus
shipping.

Pen repair is not rocket science but it is not without its share of problems
and surprises. How many junkers are you willing to overpay for in order to
practice. And just when you think you are ready, bam, you “screw the
pooch�. The pen goes off to be repaired in, probably, a more damaged
condition than before you missed that seemingly insignificant step on page,
say, 74.

You can glean as much information as you need off the various pen sites.
Blandolf has already given you excellent advice regarding the Pelikan nibs. Pen
Hero lists hunderds of sites and Richard Binder’s site defines the
terminology, explains the basics and has nice contemporary illustrations (I
believe he uses Photoshop) that are easy to read visuals.
(His graphic [ on Pentrace] illustrating the why in “Why does my brand new
Pelikan skip?�was most informative in showing that the problem is the fault
of the manufacturer of the nib.) The info is out there and it is gratis. And a
Mottishaw nib on the way.

Save your money for the buying of pens. You are going to need it.

Nice heads -up on the Pelikan Fount India. The citing of the calligraphy text
on the label was interesting.

Reid McIntyre

Dubiel is considered the author of this book ,but editor is the more
appropriate (and generous) description of his function.

"Is considered?" That's an interesting choice of words that presupposes
a conclusion. Let me correct you: he *is* the author. An editor
arranges, culls, and screens prewritten content. FD wrote, himself, all
of Da Book except for small sections that were (intentionally)
reproduced from other sources.

These materials were written for employees of those
companies who were trained in the repair of a particular company’s pens. The
repairmen used them as a reference while on the job (although, I imagine that,
like many jobs, certain repairs, if not all, became pro forma). They were not
intended for the use by the public.


If the materials to which you refer are the actual manufacturer-written
pen-repair manuals, your statement is correct, although that does not
mean their use by the average Joe would not be of value to him. Same
way a shop manual would be of value to the average Joe who chooses to do
his own auto/truck maintenance. Written for the certified tech? Sure.
Valuable to the shade-tree mechanic? Without a doubt.

Ah, but wait, you already made that point below, and refuted your
previous one:

It is like and contains the detail of ,say, a Volkswagen-trained mechanic’s
shop manual, plus another manufacturer’s manual plus, etc. .......although
not one iota as voluminous as that combination would be.

Here is the second, and, by far, most pertinent : These repairmen had parts
available to them. If a pen was damaged while being repaired, a new
feed,section, whatever, was within, probably, arm’s length.

With this statement you imply that unless something's close at hand,
it's unavailable. Not true. I have had some pens apart for over two
years waiting to find one small piece. At some pen show or another, or
somewhere else, these parts will turn up. So your implication that Da
Book is less-valuable because a particular damaged part may not be
instantly available does not hold water.

Unless you intend to invest in the repair of pens (the book, the tools, the
time, the whole nine yards, and then want to compete for vintage parts), this
is a waste of say (well it is $18.95 on the Bay) of at least $18.95 plus
shipping.

So you are saying that Da Book's audience is only people who intend to
get seriously into pen repair in terms of lots of tools and lots of
time? That's absurd and fails the test of logic as well as any simple
Finance 101 ROI test. I can almost recite the contents of Da Book (both
editions) page by page, and I can tell you that there is lots of
information in there for the rank beginner, even someone who's afraid
even to do a sac swap, information that's useful to people who never
want to pull a pen apart. Any pen owner can benefit from knowing how
his pen works, to get the most benefit from it, and Da Book has that
information in spades. There are also sections on paper and ink and
polishing that would benefit, again, people who never intend to repair a
pen.

Pen repair is not rocket science but it is not without its share of problems
and surprises.

True. So are all fun pastimes. The alternative in life is to sit in a
chair in the corner of the room and stare vacantly into space until
bedtime. Ask anyone about automobile restoration, horseback riding,
mountain climbing, target shooting, programming, anything that makes
life interesting enough to take another breath. Spend money. Have fun.
Break stuff occasionally. Cuss and swear and laugh and live your life.

How many junkers are you willing to overpay for in order to
practice.

Again you make a supposition that is faulty. Junkers are exactly what
people do *not* overpay for. They are cheap and everywhere at pen
shows, and people who are thinking straight will buy many when they turn
up, enough to get them through according to their learning plan. Buying
junk pens is an investment in one's future ability, just as a welder's
purchase of scrap metal and welding rods, and consumption of
electricity, are investments in himself toward a time when he'll be good
at what he does and enjoy it even more. Same thing for an artist's
paints and canvas, a programmer's development tools and manuals, and so on.

And just when you think you are ready, bam, you “screw the
pooch�. The pen goes off to be repaired in, probably, a more damaged
condition than before you missed that seemingly insignificant step on page,
say, 74.

Ah, but there are two problems with this argument, maybe three. First,
you imply the probability that a pen is going to get broken, or enough
of a probability that fixing a pen shouldn't even be attempted using Da
Book as a resource. That is just plain wrong, and I can personally
vouch that I was using the first edition *way* before I knew of any
alternate sources of repair information, and I think I broke maybe two
or three pens in all of my first two or three years. People who fix
pens break them occasionally. Big deal.

Second, you make the assumption that a pen owner is going to throw up
his hands after his first mistake and send the pen to someone else. Let
me assure you that I have done this only once (subcontracted nib job)
and I know of no other amateurs who've done this at any significant
frequency. People who ask someone else for a rescue by sending their
pens out are in the small minority, otherwise notices and warnings of
The Great Dangers And Terrors And Heartbreak Of Pen Repair would be all
over the boards, and no one would be attempting it except people with
mechanical-engineering PhDs.

Third, you can't damn Frank's book because of someone's missing "that
seemingly insignificant step on page, say, 74." The information is
there, and it's up to the purchaser to read it. If I were doing a brake
job on a truck and I missed the information on page 567 of the shop
manual about tightening the lug nuts to 140 foot-pounds, it's not the
shop manual's fault that the wheels fell off the truck a month later.

You can glean as much information as you need off the various pen sites.

Not necessarily, and nowhere near as much as is in Da Book, and what the
information needed can't be gotten from the Internet? Another aspect to
this is, would you rather fix pens or would you rather chase down
information bit by bit, as it's required?

Blandolf has already given you excellent advice regarding the Pelikan nibs. Pen
Hero lists hunderds of sites and Richard Binder’s site defines the
terminology, explains the basics and has nice contemporary illustrations (I
believe he uses Photoshop) that are easy to read visuals.
(His graphic [ on Pentrace] illustrating the why in “Why does my brand new
Pelikan skip?�was most informative in showing that the problem is the fault
of the manufacturer of the nib.) The info is out there and it is gratis. And a
Mottishaw nib on the way.

Great. But whether that information is useful to the person who needs
to fix a particular vintage pen is speculative at best.

Save your money for the buying of pens. You are going to need it.

No. Invest in Da Book. It will pay for itself with the first pen you
don't break because of the things you will learn from reading it.

QH

Hi,

I would like to thank 'ALL' who have given advice on this (I have also had an email
from Frank). Both arguments for and against getting the book for a beginner are
valid, especially if money was a consideration, yes, getting a pen maybe better than
getting the book. But over all, I have concluded that having the information on how
various pens work and how a pen could be repaired if indeed it could be, can help in
the purchase of pens by judging how much effort and therefore cost could be involved
in their repair even if I do not do this myself and at this stage I would not. So I
'may' be getting the book.

To be quite honest I do not know if I want to go along the vintage pen collection
route or just get new ones. My main reason for having pens is to use them, and to
enjoy using them. Time will tell, but something tells me, (from reading allot on the
subject over the past couple of weeks) that I will not stop at three pens!!! There is
something special about holding a beautiful pen that writes well, but I guess you all
know that. I am already drooling over images of a Nakaya!

Thanks,

Mike

Dubiel is considered the author of this book ,but editor is the more
appropriate (and generous) description of his function.

"Is considered?" That's an interesting choice of words that presupposes
a conclusion. Let me correct you: he *is* the author. An editor
arranges, culls, and screens prewritten content. FD wrote, himself, all
of Da Book except for small sections that were (intentionally)
reproduced from other sources.

These materials were written for employees of those
companies who were trained in the repair of a particular company’s pens. The
repairmen used them as a reference while on the job (although, I imagine that,
like many jobs, certain repairs, if not all, became pro forma). They were not
intended for the use by the public.


If the materials to which you refer are the actual manufacturer-written
pen-repair manuals, your statement is correct, although that does not
mean their use by the average Joe would not be of value to him. Same
way a shop manual would be of value to the average Joe who chooses to do
his own auto/truck maintenance. Written for the certified tech? Sure.
Valuable to the shade-tree mechanic? Without a doubt.

Ah, but wait, you already made that point below, and refuted your
previous one:

It is like and contains the detail of ,say, a Volkswagen-trained mechanic’s
shop manual, plus another manufacturer’s manual plus, etc. .......although
not one iota as voluminous as that combination would be.

Here is the second, and, by far, most pertinent : These repairmen had parts
available to them. If a pen was damaged while being repaired, a new
feed,section, whatever, was within, probably, arm’s length.

With this statement you imply that unless something's close at hand,
it's unavailable. Not true. I have had some pens apart for over two
years waiting to find one small piece. At some pen show or another, or
somewhere else, these parts will turn up. So your implication that Da
Book is less-valuable because a particular damaged part may not be
instantly available does not hold water.

Unless you intend to invest in the repair of pens (the book, the tools, the
time, the whole nine yards, and then want to compete for vintage parts), this
is a waste of say (well it is $18.95 on the Bay) of at least $18.95 plus
shipping.

So you are saying that Da Book's audience is only people who intend to
get seriously into pen repair in terms of lots of tools and lots of
time? That's absurd and fails the test of logic as well as any simple
Finance 101 ROI test. I can almost recite the contents of Da Book (both
editions) page by page, and I can tell you that there is lots of
information in there for the rank beginner, even someone who's afraid
even to do a sac swap, information that's useful to people who never
want to pull a pen apart. Any pen owner can benefit from knowing how
his pen works, to get the most benefit from it, and Da Book has that
information in spades. There are also sections on paper and ink and
polishing that would benefit, again, people who never intend to repair a
pen.

Pen repair is not rocket science but it is not without its share of problems
and surprises.

True. So are all fun pastimes. The alternative in life is to sit in a
chair in the corner of the room and stare vacantly into space until
bedtime. Ask anyone about automobile restoration, horseback riding,
mountain climbing, target shooting, programming, anything that makes
life interesting enough to take another breath. Spend money. Have fun.
Break stuff occasionally. Cuss and swear and laugh and live your life.

How many junkers are you willing to overpay for in order to
practice.

Again you make a supposition that is faulty. Junkers are exactly what
people do *not* overpay for. They are cheap and everywhere at pen
shows, and people who are thinking straight will buy many when they turn
up, enough to get them through according to their learning plan. Buying
junk pens is an investment in one's future ability, just as a welder's
purchase of scrap metal and welding rods, and consumption of
electricity, are investments in himself toward a time when he'll be good
at what he does and enjoy it even more. Same thing for an artist's
paints and canvas, a programmer's development tools and manuals, and so on.

And just when you think you are ready, bam, you “screw the
pooch”. The pen goes off to be repaired in, probably, a more damaged
condition than before you missed that seemingly insignificant step on page,
say, 74.

Ah, but there are two problems with this argument, maybe three. First,
you imply the probability that a pen is going to get broken, or enough
of a probability that fixing a pen shouldn't even be attempted using Da
Book as a resource. That is just plain wrong, and I can personally
vouch that I was using the first edition *way* before I knew of any
alternate sources of repair information, and I think I broke maybe two
or three pens in all of my first two or three years. People who fix
pens break them occasionally. Big deal.

Second, you make the assumption that a pen owner is going to throw up
his hands after his first mistake and send the pen to someone else. Let
me assure you that I have done this only once (subcontracted nib job)
and I know of no other amateurs who've done this at any significant
frequency. People who ask someone else for a rescue by sending their
pens out are in the small minority, otherwise notices and warnings of
The Great Dangers And Terrors And Heartbreak Of Pen Repair would be all
over the boards, and no one would be attempting it except people with
mechanical-engineering PhDs.

Third, you can't damn Frank's book because of someone's missing "that
seemingly insignificant step on page, say, 74." The information is
there, and it's up to the purchaser to read it. If I were doing a brake
job on a truck and I missed the information on page 567 of the shop
manual about tightening the lug nuts to 140 foot-pounds, it's not the
shop manual's fault that the wheels fell off the truck a month later.

You can glean as much information as you need off the various pen sites.

Not necessarily, and nowhere near as much as is in Da Book, and what the
information needed can't be gotten from the Internet? Another aspect to
this is, would you rather fix pens or would you rather chase down
information bit by bit, as it's required?

Blandolf has already given you excellent advice regarding the Pelikan nibs. Pen
Hero lists hunderds of sites and Richard Binder’s site defines the
terminology, explains the basics and has nice contemporary illustrations (I
believe he uses Photoshop) that are easy to read visuals.
(His graphic [ on Pentrace] illustrating the why in “Why does my brand new
Pelikan skip?”was most informative in showing that the problem is the fault
of the manufacturer of the nib.) The info is out there and it is gratis. And a
Mottishaw nib on the way.

Great. But whether that information is useful to the person who needs
to fix a particular vintage pen is speculative at best.

Save your money for the buying of pens. You are going to need it.

No. Invest in Da Book. It will pay for itself with the first pen you
don't break because of the things you will learn from reading it.

QH

Michael,

I have one 'nice pen' my pelikan m400. I also have a couple of pens that
I've picked up. One nice Eversharp desk pen that I got for $8.00. It needed
a new sack. I got the book, purchased a sack assortment from Sam at
Pendemonium and in one hour I had a funtioning, beautiful 14k nibbed desk
pen and it felt wonderful to have done it myself.

Frank's book is wonderful to help explain things. Some items are for the
more experienced but if you have a brain and some patience, that book and
this group can help you with nearly everything pen related. Frank himself is
a remarkable fount of information. Not always delivered with sugar, but you
can be assured that it is backed by actual experience.

Good luck,
Wendy

"Michael Oates" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I would like to thank 'ALL' who have given advice on this (I have also had
an email
from Frank). Both arguments for and against getting the book for a
beginner are
valid, especially if money was a consideration, yes, getting a pen maybe
better than
getting the book. But over all, I have concluded that having the
information on how
various pens work and how a pen could be repaired if indeed it could be,
can help in
the purchase of pens by judging how much effort and therefore cost could
be involved
in their repair even if I do not do this myself and at this stage I would
not. So I
'may' be getting the book.

To be quite honest I do not know if I want to go along the vintage pen
collection
route or just get new ones. My main reason for having pens is to use them,
and to
enjoy using them. Time will tell, but something tells me, (from reading
allot on the
subject over the past couple of weeks) that I will not stop at three
pens!!! There is
something special about holding a beautiful pen that writes well, but I
guess you all
know that. I am already drooling over images of a Nakaya!

Thanks,

Mike

Dubiel is considered the author of this book ,but editor is the more
appropriate (and generous) description of his function.

"Is considered?" That's an interesting choice of words that presupposes
a conclusion. Let me correct you: he *is* the author. An editor
arranges, culls, and screens prewritten content. FD wrote, himself, all
of Da Book except for small sections that were (intentionally)
reproduced from other sources.

These materials were written for employees of those
companies who were trained in the repair of a particular company's
pens. The
repairmen used them as a reference while on the job (although, I
imagine that,
like many jobs, certain repairs, if not all, became pro forma). They
were not
intended for the use by the public.


If the materials to which you refer are the actual manufacturer-written
pen-repair manuals, your statement is correct, although that does not
mean their use by the average Joe would not be of value to him. Same
way a shop manual would be of value to the average Joe who chooses to do
his own auto/truck maintenance. Written for the certified tech? Sure.
Valuable to the shade-tree mechanic? Without a doubt.

Ah, but wait, you already made that point below, and refuted your
previous one:

It is like and contains the detail of ,say, a Volkswagen-trained
mechanic's
shop manual, plus another manufacturer's manual plus, etc.
........although
not one iota as voluminous as that combination would be.

Here is the second, and, by far, most pertinent : These repairmen had
parts
available to them. If a pen was damaged while being repaired, a new
feed,section, whatever, was within, probably, arm's length.

With this statement you imply that unless something's close at hand,
it's unavailable. Not true. I have had some pens apart for over two
years waiting to find one small piece. At some pen show or another, or
somewhere else, these parts will turn up. So your implication that Da
Book is less-valuable because a particular damaged part may not be
instantly available does not hold water.

Unless you intend to invest in the repair of pens (the book, the tools,
the
time, the whole nine yards, and then want to compete for vintage
parts), this
is a waste of say (well it is $18.95 on the Bay) of at least $18.95
plus
shipping.

So you are saying that Da Book's audience is only people who intend to
get seriously into pen repair in terms of lots of tools and lots of
time? That's absurd and fails the test of logic as well as any simple
Finance 101 ROI test. I can almost recite the contents of Da Book (both
editions) page by page, and I can tell you that there is lots of
information in there for the rank beginner, even someone who's afraid
even to do a sac swap, information that's useful to people who never
want to pull a pen apart. Any pen owner can benefit from knowing how
his pen works, to get the most benefit from it, and Da Book has that
information in spades. There are also sections on paper and ink and
polishing that would benefit, again, people who never intend to repair a
pen.

Pen repair is not rocket science but it is not without its share of
problems
and surprises.

True. So are all fun pastimes. The alternative in life is to sit in a
chair in the corner of the room and stare vacantly into space until
bedtime. Ask anyone about automobile restoration, horseback riding,
mountain climbing, target shooting, programming, anything that makes
life interesting enough to take another breath. Spend money. Have fun.
Break stuff occasionally. Cuss and swear and laugh and live your life.

How many junkers are you willing to overpay for in order to
practice.

Again you make a supposition that is faulty. Junkers are exactly what
people do *not* overpay for. They are cheap and everywhere at pen
shows, and people who are thinking straight will buy many when they turn
up, enough to get them through according to their learning plan. Buying
junk pens is an investment in one's future ability, just as a welder's
purchase of scrap metal and welding rods, and consumption of
electricity, are investments in himself toward a time when he'll be good
at what he does and enjoy it even more. Same thing for an artist's
paints and canvas, a programmer's development tools and manuals, and so
on.

And just when you think you are ready, bam, you "screw the
pooch". The pen goes off to be repaired in, probably, a more damaged
condition than before you missed that seemingly insignificant step on
page,
say, 74.

Ah, but there are two problems with this argument, maybe three. First,
you imply the probability that a pen is going to get broken, or enough
of a probability that fixing a pen shouldn't even be attempted using Da
Book as a resource. That is just plain wrong, and I can personally
vouch that I was using the first edition *way* before I knew of any
alternate sources of repair information, and I think I broke maybe two
or three pens in all of my first two or three years. People who fix
pens break them occasionally. Big deal.

Second, you make the assumption that a pen owner is going to throw up
his hands after his first mistake and send the pen to someone else. Let
me assure you that I have done this only once (subcontracted nib job)
and I know of no other amateurs who've done this at any significant
frequency. People who ask someone else for a rescue by sending their
pens out are in the small minority, otherwise notices and warnings of
The Great Dangers And Terrors And Heartbreak Of Pen Repair would be all
over the boards, and no one would be attempting it except people with
mechanical-engineering PhDs.

Third, you can't damn Frank's book because of someone's missing "that
seemingly insignificant step on page, say, 74." The information is
there, and it's up to the purchaser to read it. If I were doing a brake
job on a truck and I missed the information on page 567 of the shop
manual about tightening the lug nuts to 140 foot-pounds, it's not the
shop manual's fault that the wheels fell off the truck a month later.

You can glean as much information as you need off the various pen
sites.

Not necessarily, and nowhere near as much as is in Da Book, and what the
information needed can't be gotten from the Internet? Another aspect to
this is, would you rather fix pens or would you rather chase down
information bit by bit, as it's required?

Blandolf has already given you excellent advice regarding the Pelikan
nibs. Pen
Hero lists hunderds of sites and Richard Binder's site defines the
terminology, explains the basics and has nice contemporary
illustrations (I
believe he uses Photoshop) that are easy to read visuals.
(His graphic [ on Pentrace] illustrating the why in "Why does my brand
new
Pelikan skip?"was most informative in showing that the problem is the
fault
of the manufacturer of the nib.) The info is out there and it is
gratis. And a
Mottishaw nib on the way.

Great. But whether that information is useful to the person who needs
to fix a particular vintage pen is speculative at best.

Save your money for the buying of pens. You are going to need it.

No. Invest in Da Book. It will pay for itself with the first pen you
don't break because of the things you will learn from reading it.

QH

While Frank and I don't always see eye-to-eye and I've had as many
heated debates with him as Reid has (with perhaps a little more elan)
I have to confess to having purchased this manual.

Even though vintage is the focus, pens just haven't changed that much
to make the repair information obsolete. And thus far the only tool
I've seen that isn't available through many of the on-line resources
is an "alcohol" lamp.

I think it's worth the $. even if you never buy vintage. Are there
other sources - you bet - and I've gotten great step-by-step
instructions for disassembling and repairing my Sheaffer Craftsman
from a couple of Pentrace folks. IMO, having *all* of these resources
available online as well as with Mr. Dubiel's book, is worth the
effort/$. We don't all think the same way, learn the same way, have
the same ability (or lack thereof) to interpret 2D images into 3D or
to interpret the written word into a 3D action. So one shouldn't
limit their understanding of pens to just Frank's book or just
Richard's pages or whatever...

You won't find pretty pen pics in it or fascinating history. but its
uses extend beyond vintage pens.

Third, you can't damn Frank's book because of someone's missing "that
seemingly insignificant step on page, say, 74." The information is
there, and it's up to the purchaser to read it.

well - not meaning to ding Mr. D here but the editor in me says "yes,
it's there, but simply *reading* it isn't as straightforward as you
imply. Still - doesn't take a rocket scientist to get through it.

JMO, kcat

Michael, go the vintage route. Not that you should neglect mods but the
oldies are goodies and general cheaper.

As far as 20bucks for Frank's book, money well spent. Some people have a
bone to pick, thus the criticism. QH in his eloquent post says it all.

Welcome on board and enjoy the hobby.



"Michael Oates" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I would like to thank 'ALL' who have given advice on this (I have also had
an email
from Frank). Both arguments for and against getting the book for a
beginner are
valid, especially if money was a consideration, yes, getting a pen maybe
better than
getting the book. But over all, I have concluded that having the
information on how
various pens work and how a pen could be repaired if indeed it could be,
can help in
the purchase of pens by judging how much effort and therefore cost could
be involved
in their repair even if I do not do this myself and at this stage I would
not. So I
'may' be getting the book.

To be quite honest I do not know if I want to go along the vintage pen
collection
route or just get new ones. My main reason for having pens is to use them,
and to
enjoy using them. Time will tell, but something tells me, (from reading
allot on the
subject over the past couple of weeks) that I will not stop at three
pens!!! There is
something special about holding a beautiful pen that writes well, but I
guess you all
know that. I am already drooling over images of a Nakaya!

Thanks,

Mike

Subject: Da Book
From: Quarter Horseman A
.nomail/A
Date: Sat, Sep 13, 2003 6:08 AM
Message-id:

Dubiel is considered the author of this book ,but editor is the more
appropriate (and generous) description of his function.

"Is considered?" That's an interesting choice of words that presupposes
a conclusion. Let me correct you: he *is* the author. An editor
arranges, culls, and screens prewritten content. FD wrote, himself, all
of Da Book except for small sections that were (intentionally)
reproduced from other sources.

Since the first paragraph of my post states that Da Book is a compilation
(defined as the act of compiling. Compile: 1) to put together(documents,
selections or other materials) in one book or work. 2) to make (a book, writing
or the like) from various sources (also stated as to compose a (a book, etc) by
gathering materials from various sources) and since you take no issue with that
description, then by what logic are you subsequently concluding that "he *is*
the author.

I used the word editor (and if the word complilation is not in dispute) then it
is a reasonable choice.

Your statement concerning the writing of the book is contradictory : FD either
wrote it all or he didn't. ("himself" is redundant).

What constitutes a small section: two pages, twenty pages, more, less? I do not
think that you are under the delusion that an "author" would 'unintentionally'
reproduce materials and include said materials in a publication. Unless, of
course, you are an Instructional Dean at a multi-culti institution of higher
learning and dismissing cases of plagiarism is part of your job description.

These materials were written for employees of those
companies who were trained in the repair of a particular company’s pens.
The
repairmen used them as a reference while on the job (although, I imagine
that,
like many jobs, certain repairs, if not all, became pro forma). They were not
intended for the use by the public.


If the materials to which you refer are the actual manufacturer-written
pen-repair manuals, your statement is correct, although that does not
mean their use by the average Joe would not be of value to him. Same
way a shop manual would be of value to the average Joe who chooses to do
his own auto/truck maintenance. Written for the certified tech? Sure.
Valuable to the shade-tree mechanic? Without a doubt.

The shop manual is beyond the grasp of the average 'shade tree mechanic.' A
gearhead - ok.

How many people, at the time these shop manuals were in use by the pen
companies, had any interest in repairing their pens themselves? The pen shops
had loaners, correct? The logical answer would be between zero and none.

Ah, but wait, you already made that point below, and refuted your
previous one:

It is like and contains the detail of ,say, a Volkswagen-trained mechanic’s
shop manual, plus another manufacturer’s manual plus, etc.
........although
not one iota as voluminous as that combination would be.

I wrote in the third paragraph that the "The compilation
is.......comprehensive".
Reinforced is accurate. Not refuted.

Here is the second, and, by far, most pertinent : These repairmen had parts
available to them. If a pen was damaged while being repaired, a new
feed,section, whatever, was within, probably, arm’s length.

With this statement you imply that unless something's close at hand,
it's unavailable. Not true. I have had some pens apart for over two
years waiting to find one small piece. At some pen show or another, or
somewhere else, these parts will turn up. So your implication that Da
Book is less-valuable because a particular damaged part may not be
instantly available does not hold water.

This is a ludicrous conclusion on your part. I imply nothing of the sort. I
wrote that "these repairmen had parts available to them". That means all parts
necessary (and lots of them) for the repair of a company's line of pens. If a
repairman, working in a shop or on a 'line', had to wait two years for a part
or parts there would be hell to pay somewhere in the company structure. You are
willing to wait two years for a part. What is the result if the part is faulty?
You lose it? You break it? Two more years of waiting? You, inadvertently,
confirm my point concerning the paucity of vintage parts.
and
I am only stating the reality of venturing into pen repair (which you list
very nicely: pens apart for two years, waiting, parts will 'turn up', some pen
show or another). I had no idea what the original poster's intentions were
regarding direction but I saw( and see) no point in presenting a rosey picture
of the situation nor encouraging any unwarranted expectations that may be
attached to the mere purchase of a book.

Unless you intend to invest in the repair of pens (the book, the tools, the
time, the whole nine yards, and then want to compete for vintage parts), this
is a waste of say (well it is $18.95 on the Bay) of at least $18.95 plus
shipping.

So you are saying that Da Book's audience is only people who intend to
get seriously into pen repair in terms of lots of tools and lots of
time? That's absurd and fails the test of logic as well as any simple
Finance 101 ROI test. I can almost recite the contents of Da Book (both
editions) page by page, and I can tell you that there is lots of
information in there for the rank beginner, even someone who's afraid
even to do a sac swap, information that's useful to people who never
want to pull a pen apart. Any pen owner can benefit from knowing how
his pen works, to get the most benefit from it, and Da Book has that
information in spades. There are also sections on paper and ink and
polishing that would benefit, again, people who never intend to repair a
pen.

I reiterate: I wrote that the book is comprehensive. Like any product the
audience is comprised of those willing to buy it.
Everything you list is available to an interested party at no cost in other
venues. I used the extreme and felt that the original poster could extrapolate
from that point. Do I think it is a waste of money. For me, yes.



Pen repair is not rocket science but it is not without its share of problems
and surprises.

True. So are all fun pastimes. The alternative in life is to sit in a
chair in the corner of the room and stare vacantly into space until
bedtime. Ask anyone about automobile restoration, horseback riding,
mountain climbing, target shooting, programming, anything that makes
life interesting enough to take another breath. Spend money. Have fun.
Break stuff occasionally. Cuss and swear and laugh and live your life.

Oy. I guess one has to exercise those cliches every now and then. No harm.
No foul.

How many junkers are you willing to overpay for in order to
practice.

Again you make a supposition that is faulty. Junkers are exactly what
people do *not* overpay for. They are cheap and everywhere at pen
shows, and people who are thinking straight will buy many when they turn
up, enough to get them through according to their learning plan. Buying
junk pens is an investment in one's future ability, just as a welder's
purchase of scrap metal and welding rods, and consumption of
electricity, are investments in himself toward a time when he'll be good
at what he does and enjoy it even more. Same thing for an artist's
paints and canvas, a programmer's development tools and manuals, and so on.

You are assuming a learning plan. If you pay for a junker, you have overpaid
for it. Again, the caveats: pen shows, "turn up", and the really funny
juxtaposition of "pen shows and people who are thinking straight".

And just when you think you are ready, bam, you “screw the
pooch�. The pen goes off to be repaired in, probably, a more damaged
condition than before you missed that seemingly insignificant step on page,
say, 74.

Ah, but there are two problems with this argument, maybe three.

This is not an argument. It is positing a hypothesis: As in: What if, just
when you think you are ready?

Second, you make the assumption that a pen owner is going to throw up
his hands after his first mistake and send the pen to someone else. Let
me assure you that I have done this only once (subcontracted nib job)
and I know of no other amateurs who've done this at any significant
frequency. People who ask someone else for a rescue by sending their
pens out are in the small minority, otherwise notices and warnings of
The Great Dangers And Terrors And Heartbreak Of Pen Repair would be all
over the boards, and no one would be attempting it except people with
mechanical-engineering PhDs.

Sure. That's why all the noted repair people are backed up - no business.

Third, you can't damn Frank's book because of someone's missing "that
seemingly insignificant step on page, say, 74." The information is
there, and it's up to the purchaser to read it.

Where, in the statement regarding page 74, do I ,in any way, impune (damn)
Da Book. I wrote "you" (the user of the book) missed the step. I did not write
that the step was not there, misstated, in fine print or otherwise faulty. Only
that you (the user) thought the step to be seemingly insignificant and that you
(the user) suffered the consequence. You are out to lunch on this one.

If I were doing a brake job on a truck and I missed the information on page
567 of the shop
manual about tightening the lug nuts to 140 foot-pounds, it's not the
shop manual's fault that the wheels fell off the truck a month later.

Yeah. Who's going to sue a shop manual? If page 567 was ripped out of the
book, you'd still be held responsible.

You can glean as much information as you need off the various pen sites.

Not necessarily, and nowhere near as much as is in Da Book, and what the
information needed can't be gotten from the Internet? Another aspect to
this is, would you rather fix pens or would you rather chase down
information bit by bit, as it's required?

Neither. I'd rather be target shooting, mountain climbing, staring vacantly
into space, collecting a new cache of cliches.

Blandolf has already given you excellent advice regarding the Pelikan nibs.
Pen
Hero lists hunderds of sites and Richard Binder’s site defines the
terminology, explains the basics and has nice contemporary illustrations (I
believe he uses Photoshop) that are easy to read visuals.
(His graphic [ on Pentrace] illustrating the why in “Why does my brand new
Pelikan skip?�was most informative in showing that the problem is the fault
of the manufacturer of the nib.) The info is out there and it is gratis. And
a
Mottishaw nib on the way.

Great. But whether that information is useful to the person who needs
to fix a particular vintage pen is speculative at best.

Right, and you can quote Da Book chapter and verse. But whether that
information concerning your memory is useful to the person who needs to fix a
particular vintage pen is speculative at best.

Save your money for the buying of pens. You are going to need it.

No. Invest in Da Book. It will pay for itself with the first pen you
don't break because of the things you will learn from reading it.

Yep, OP, you won't need money for pens. Now QH, explain this convoluted
theory that the book will pay for itself with the first pen you don't break
because of the things you will learn from reading it. The way I understand this
is : the book will,in form of payment, give the purchaser the first pen (is
this pen the purchaser's or the book's?) that the purchaser does not break
because the purchaser can read and learn things from that pen. So the purchaser
must break at least one pen in order to get to the first pen he doesn't break
after he invests in Da Book in order to receive payment from said book.

Just a second, I need a tabula raza here. Nope. But I did channel Fritz
Hollings and he says he finds a" a whole lot personificationin' goin on here.
And maybe some Prosopopeia 'n too."

And this guy who bought the book also bought a Pelikan. Thank the stars those
Pelikans are workhorses and he won't need Da Book except for some armchair
entertainment.

Reid McIntyre