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#21
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On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:32:50 -0700, "RF"
wrote: Tell you what... you ask Bowers, Stack, Kagin, and any others next time your at a big show, and I bet they know him by name, and by the quality of the items he handles. The only time he handles average items, is when someone has traded him for a nicer item. Ira IS that big.. not just on RCC.. FWIW, whether Bowers or whoever knows of him means nothing as to his reputation in the hobby being "second to none". That was the point, no more, no less. As I've said, I'd buy the coin from him myself if it was something I was interested in. You're awfully defensive. Whether someone handles "average" items or "quality" items really matters not as to how they treat their customers, though, IMHO. There are questionable dealers who trade expensive coins only (as with any relative commodity), and dealers of the highest integrity and knowledge who handle typical collector coins with class and superb service. I'd much rather deal with the latter. As for the whole "Ira coin" thing, it ocurred to me that I have a Lincoln I bought from Bowers in the 70's... to me, it's still just a Lincoln... it's not a "Dave coin" that I'm honored to own because it once passed through his inventory. I just can't relate to what seems to me to be borderline idol-worship. And if someone decides to deal in 'high-end' coins only, that doesn't make them a better person, or immune from criticism: it's just a business decision. The original questions still stand. For example, why is it that lately everyone has been chiming in that it doesn't matter where a coin has been, estate or otherwise, and that they don't like seeing mention of it in an auction. Yet Ira made a point of telling us about the "older gentleman that had it slabbed about 14 years ago and he's owned it before then in pre-slabbing days", and it's conveniently ignored. Just for one example. Just asking. If it's too uncomfortable to even contemplate, feel free to continue to ignore, or raise another red herring. Chuck |
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#23
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Chuck writes:
Whether someone handles "average" items or "quality" items really matters not as to how they treat their customers, though, IMHO. There are questionable dealers who trade expensive coins only (as with any relative commodity), and dealers of the highest integrity and knowledge who handle typical collector coins with class and superb service. I'd much rather deal with the latter. So then are you saying that there are basically two types of dealers? Those of QUESTIONABLE character who trade expensive coins and those of the HIGHEST INTEGRITY who handle only typical collector coins? You of course would choose to deal with only the latter. Makes sense. I didn't realize that the characterization of dealers was so simplistic. Hmmmn,,,sleazy but carries only expensive coins...OR, those who are honest and give superb service but deal in typical collector coins. Who'da thought it could be so straightforward? Phil's got it right...I explained that the coin was in an older gntleman's collection here on RCC to repond to your charge that I was guilty of yet more hype. |
#24
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Ira,
I stopped posting to this guy yesterday because it is obvious he only wants to make trouble. He just started posting to RCC in January and already he is the resident expert on how auctions should be conducted and the intergrity of dealers. As you told me long ago about another troll, I do not think this guy is worth the time. Keep doing what you are doing and lets ignore this guy and hopefully he will go away. David |
#25
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On 29 Mar 2005 11:58:37 -0800, "Ira Stein" wrote:
Chuck writes: Whether someone handles "average" items or "quality" items really matters not as to how they treat their customers, though, IMHO. There are questionable dealers who trade expensive coins only (as with any relative commodity), and dealers of the highest integrity and knowledge who handle typical collector coins with class and superb service. I'd much rather deal with the latter. So then are you saying that there are basically two types of dealers? Those of QUESTIONABLE character who trade expensive coins and those of the HIGHEST INTEGRITY who handle only typical collector coins? You of course would choose to deal with only the latter. Makes sense. I didn't realize that the characterization of dealers was so simplistic. When I read this message this morning, I thought of several dealers I've met along the way who sell more expensive coins, but do it in (for lack of a better word) a charming way. These dealers have not lost their excitement about coins or their interest in people who collect them. I personally do not believe that it is a red flag to show excitement over a coin being offered. Many coins deserve the praise. The only time I feel it is out of place is if the coin is built up to be a gem, then the picture shows it looks more like a weathered piece of concrete. As long as auctioneers are truthful and don't say LQQK, I see no problem with praise. I've been more troubled by sellers who have a MS 67+ coin who take bad pictures and don't even comment on the coin's beauty. Imagine what it must be like to be a beautiful coin being marketed as a common slug. Anita |
#26
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On 28 Mar 2005 14:55:51 -0800, "Ira Stein" wrote:
Gary, it was a last minute decision due to the scarcity of the material I like to buy at the Baltimore show. As it turns out, there was little for me to buy in West Palm and I had my wife along, so I rarely spent more than 2 hrs per day at the show. Wouldn't have made any difference anyway. At a smallish show like that, I could have seen all I needed to see in 3 hrs. Next time in Florida for coins will be at FUN, but I will be going to Central States. Ira SIGH...........oh well..........Hopefully I will see you at FUN next year then......... Regards, Gary |
#27
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On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:02:36 -0500, Phil DeMayo
wrote: Ira "made a point" of speaking of the coin's history because after it was explained to YOU that he probably meant that this particular coin had never been auctioned on eBay, YOU responded "And how would he know that for sure?" Since this was a direct response to your question it was not viewed (here) as hype....and ignored. It's beating a dead horse now... obviously no one will dare reply directly and openly... or maybe even consider that there are shades of gray, and Ira's hype may be tolerable, but not pure as the driven snow. I'm actually less interested in the particular hype etc. involved than in the groupthink that selectively, seemingly reflexively, attacks or ignores it in any given case, even when brought to their attention. Yes, Phil, the 'older gentleman' elaboration was apparently in response to my post. But as he said himself, he made a point of speaking of the history in the listing originally, before I'd said a thing, but apparently typo'd "this date" rather than "this coin". And the 'how would he know for sure' was never responded to directly at all, actually (the 'older gentleman' elaboration doesn't, any more than an 'estate' claim by some other seller would). Nor why it would be useful to include "this coin has never been listed on eBay before" in the eBay description in the first place, even if verifiably true... before I'd said a thing. Ira, even with the hype and exclamation points, is God; and eBay sellers who mention the word 'estate' are evil incarnate. At least we have it settled now. ) Chuck |
#28
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On 29 Mar 2005 11:58:37 -0800, "Ira Stein" wrote:
Whether someone handles "average" items or "quality" items really matters not as to how they treat their customers, though, IMHO. There are questionable dealers who trade expensive coins only (as with any relative commodity), and dealers of the highest integrity and knowledge who handle typical collector coins with class and superb service. I'd much rather deal with the latter. So then are you saying that there are basically two types of dealers? Those of QUESTIONABLE character who trade expensive coins and those of the HIGHEST INTEGRITY who handle only typical collector coins? You of course would choose to deal with only the latter. Makes sense. I didn't realize that the characterization of dealers was so simplistic. It's not, of course, nor did I say it was. Merely that it seems enough, for some reason, to simply point out that you handle high-end coins, as if that should be a discussion-ender. It was obviously rhetorical. Take it in context, look back at the post I replied to. I was just contrasting for effect two hypothetical subgroups of dealers. The quality of any given person's coins for sale says little if anything about their reputation, by itself. Do I need to repeat also that I would have no problem buying the S-VDB from you, at the right price, were I in the market for one? Would that be consistent with your twisted interpretation of my above paragraph? Chuck |
#29
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On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:36:56 GMT, Anita wrote:
When I read this message this morning, I thought of several dealers I've met along the way who sell more expensive coins, but do it in (for lack of a better word) a charming way. These dealers have not lost their excitement about coins or their interest in people who collect them. Definitely... there aren't as many as there used to be, and IMHO much of that has to do with commoditized slabs, but they're out there. I don't consider hype charming, though. I personally do not believe that it is a red flag to show excitement over a coin being offered. Many coins deserve the praise. The only time I feel it is out of place is if the coin is built up to be a gem, then the picture shows it looks more like a weathered piece of concrete. People get legitimately excited over different things, and it's not always grade. Ira's S-VDB is attractive, but does little for me. One person's "Wow" is another's "so what?". As someone said here the other day, the coin should speak for itself; and with a quality coin a seller risks gilding the lily. There's a difference between objective information and hype, regardless of the grade of the coin. As long as auctioneers are truthful and don't say LQQK, I see no problem with praise. Yeah, LQQK is annoying. But where you and I apparently differ is that I tend to think that "The Key!", "... Give yourself the present you've always wanted!", "...well under my cost with no reserve!", and "this is its first time on eBay" are, also. And I'm sure those would appear (among other things) in one of those numbered lists of things wrong with a listing that gets posted here, if the seller was anyone but Ira. Chuck |
#30
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