PING: Aram

I'm trying to figure out the 1825 quarters.

1) Browning clearly states that B-1 is "1825 over 1822" while B-2 is "1825
over 1823." But for B-3, which shares the same obverse die as B-2, he
beats around the bush, not quite calling it "1825 over 1824." What's the
truth on this?

2) Isn't it odd that Greysheet and Coin Values list values for all three
overdates, but the Redbook only lists values for "5 over 2" and "5 over 4."

3) Have any varieties beyond B-3 been identified since Browning did his
work?

James

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
I'm trying to figure out the 1825 quarters.

1) Browning clearly states that B-1 is "1825 over 1822" while B-2 is
"1825
over 1823." But for B-3, which shares the same obverse die as B-2, he
beats around the bush, not quite calling it "1825 over 1824." What's the
truth on this?

2) Isn't it odd that Greysheet and Coin Values list values for all three
overdates, but the Redbook only lists values for "5 over 2" and "5 over
4."

3) Have any varieties beyond B-3 been identified since Browning did his
work?

James

Excellent questions, all. When I got into this series many years ago, I
learned that
there are two obverse dies and three reverse dies used in 1825. There is
speculation,
and I believe Larry Briggs found very tiny differences in the obverse dies,
so there
might be another, but I have not seen these differences myself.
AFAIK, no collector of this series by die marriage looks at the date.
(Other than to see
that it is an 1825.) We use the reverse to distinguish between the Browning
2 and the
Browning 3 by the location of the value, 25 C. The low 25 C. is the
Browning 3; the
high 25 C. is the Browning 2. There are die states in both of these
varieties which
are of interest to specialists, including highly valued retained and
complete cuds caused by
reverse rim to rim die breaks.
The 1825 B1 uses a completely different obverse die. It is quite easy to
distinguish from
B2 and 3 by the location of the 13th star (Lowest right star). It is not
under the curl, but
lies to the side (east) of it. This is, I believe, the rarest (R5) die
marriage of the three
known 1825 varieties. This was the one with the wrong picture in the Red
Book.
I am of the opinion that price guides have limited usefulness in this series
when it comes
to comparative values, demand, supply, and , in general, what should and
should not be
listed. They are, I think, for popular consumption, and not for collectors
who are deeply
into the series. But that is true of other series as well, don't you think?
I also think that
the EAC has had a major impact on collectors of early copper because of the
existence
of "Copper Quotes by Robinson" which describes and values all varieties of
Large
and Half Cents in one place. I think that the Bust Quarter series suffers
from a lack of "Quarter
Quotes by Haroutunian", but I am still working on it. :-)
All kidding aside, there was an attempt to publish such a work, but it
wasn't readily
accepted by the Bust Quarter collectors of that time. I am not sure why,
but I have heard
that the project was rejected when the author and researcher sold his
collection shortly
after publication. Made it look kinda suspicious, I think.
There have been a couple of new die marriage discoveries since I started
collecting
these beauties. And the question of rarity remains an ongoing and ever
changing
conundrum. To me, that's where the fun lies. Sureness often leads to
boredom.
HTH. Aram.

"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message
...

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
I'm trying to figure out the 1825 quarters.

1) Browning clearly states that B-1 is "1825 over 1822" while B-2 is
"1825
over 1823." But for B-3, which shares the same obverse die as B-2, he
beats around the bush, not quite calling it "1825 over 1824." What's the
truth on this?

2) Isn't it odd that Greysheet and Coin Values list values for all three
overdates, but the Redbook only lists values for "5 over 2" and "5 over
4."

3) Have any varieties beyond B-3 been identified since Browning did his
work?

James

Excellent questions, all. When I got into this series many years ago, I
learned that
there are two obverse dies and three reverse dies used in 1825. There is
speculation,
and I believe Larry Briggs found very tiny differences in the obverse
dies,
so there
might be another, but I have not seen these differences myself.
AFAIK, no collector of this series by die marriage looks at the date.
(Other than to see
that it is an 1825.) We use the reverse to distinguish between the
Browning
2 and the
Browning 3 by the location of the value, 25 C. The low 25 C. is the
Browning 3; the
high 25 C. is the Browning 2. There are die states in both of these
varieties which
are of interest to specialists, including highly valued retained and
complete cuds caused by
reverse rim to rim die breaks.
The 1825 B1 uses a completely different obverse die. It is quite easy to
distinguish from
B2 and 3 by the location of the 13th star (Lowest right star). It is not
under the curl, but
lies to the side (east) of it. This is, I believe, the rarest (R5) die
marriage of the three
known 1825 varieties. This was the one with the wrong picture in the Red
Book.
I am of the opinion that price guides have limited usefulness in this
series
when it comes
to comparative values, demand, supply, and , in general, what should and
should not be
listed. They are, I think, for popular consumption, and not for
collectors
who are deeply
into the series. But that is true of other series as well, don't you
think?
I also think that
the EAC has had a major impact on collectors of early copper because of
the
existence
of "Copper Quotes by Robinson" which describes and values all varieties of
Large
and Half Cents in one place. I think that the Bust Quarter series suffers
from a lack of "Quarter
Quotes by Haroutunian", but I am still working on it. :-)
All kidding aside, there was an attempt to publish such a work, but it
wasn't readily
accepted by the Bust Quarter collectors of that time. I am not sure why,
but I have heard
that the project was rejected when the author and researcher sold his
collection shortly
after publication. Made it look kinda suspicious, I think.
There have been a couple of new die marriage discoveries since I started
collecting
these beauties. And the question of rarity remains an ongoing and ever
changing
conundrum. To me, that's where the fun lies. Sureness often leads to
boredom.
HTH. Aram.

Thanks for that thoughtful response, Aram. I'll look forward to the
publication of the first edition of "QQH." 8)

I'm fascinated by Browning's observation that the reverse of 1825 B-1 is the
same as the reverse for the 1824, with the spike coming off the back of the
bottom arrowhead toward the olive branch. That would allow one to attribute
the date/variety from the reverse alone!

That said, I looked at the 5s on my 1825 B-2 and B-3 under a 30X scope.
What a mess! The 5s seem to be misshapen, and the underlying 4s are rather
rough, to say the least. I can see why specialists don't get too excited
about these "overdates." I'm thinking much the same thing about the 1818
B-1, the "1818 over 1815." What's your take on that one?

James

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...

"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message
...

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
I'm trying to figure out the 1825 quarters.

1) Browning clearly states that B-1 is "1825 over 1822" while B-2 is
"1825
over 1823." But for B-3, which shares the same obverse die as B-2, he
beats around the bush, not quite calling it "1825 over 1824." What's
the
truth on this?

2) Isn't it odd that Greysheet and Coin Values list values for all
three
overdates, but the Redbook only lists values for "5 over 2" and "5 over
4."

3) Have any varieties beyond B-3 been identified since Browning did
his
work?

James

Excellent questions, all. When I got into this series many years ago, I
learned that
there are two obverse dies and three reverse dies used in 1825. There
is
speculation,
and I believe Larry Briggs found very tiny differences in the obverse
dies,
so there
might be another, but I have not seen these differences myself.
AFAIK, no collector of this series by die marriage looks at the date.
(Other than to see
that it is an 1825.) We use the reverse to distinguish between the
Browning
2 and the
Browning 3 by the location of the value, 25 C. The low 25 C. is the
Browning 3; the
high 25 C. is the Browning 2. There are die states in both of these
varieties which
are of interest to specialists, including highly valued retained and
complete cuds caused by
reverse rim to rim die breaks.
The 1825 B1 uses a completely different obverse die. It is quite easy
to
distinguish from
B2 and 3 by the location of the 13th star (Lowest right star). It is
not
under the curl, but
lies to the side (east) of it. This is, I believe, the rarest (R5) die
marriage of the three
known 1825 varieties. This was the one with the wrong picture in the
Red
Book.
I am of the opinion that price guides have limited usefulness in this
series
when it comes
to comparative values, demand, supply, and , in general, what should and
should not be
listed. They are, I think, for popular consumption, and not for
collectors
who are deeply
into the series. But that is true of other series as well, don't you
think?
I also think that
the EAC has had a major impact on collectors of early copper because of
the
existence
of "Copper Quotes by Robinson" which describes and values all varieties
of
Large
and Half Cents in one place. I think that the Bust Quarter series
suffers
from a lack of "Quarter
Quotes by Haroutunian", but I am still working on it. :-)
All kidding aside, there was an attempt to publish such a work, but it
wasn't readily
accepted by the Bust Quarter collectors of that time. I am not sure
why,
but I have heard
that the project was rejected when the author and researcher sold his
collection shortly
after publication. Made it look kinda suspicious, I think.
There have been a couple of new die marriage discoveries since I started
collecting
these beauties. And the question of rarity remains an ongoing and ever
changing
conundrum. To me, that's where the fun lies. Sureness often leads to
boredom.
HTH. Aram.

Thanks for that thoughtful response, Aram. I'll look forward to the
publication of the first edition of "QQH." 8)

I'm fascinated by Browning's observation that the reverse of 1825 B-1 is
the
same as the reverse for the 1824, with the spike coming off the back of
the
bottom arrowhead toward the olive branch. That would allow one to
attribute
the date/variety from the reverse alone!

That said, I looked at the 5s on my 1825 B-2 and B-3 under a 30X scope.
What a mess! The 5s seem to be misshapen, and the underlying 4s are
rather
rough, to say the least. I can see why specialists don't get too excited
about these "overdates." I'm thinking much the same thing about the 1818
B-1, the "1818 over 1815." What's your take on that one?

James


You're welcome. That reverse is also found on the 1828 Browning 2. I
believe
this marriage to be pretty rare. (R5)
I agree with your assessment of the 1818/5. It is not rare, AFAIK, and the
same can
be said for a lot of "overdates" in the series. The most commonly found
variety of
the 1819 Bust Quarter is the Browning 3, with the repunched 5 and what looks
like a colon after the C. But if you find this marriage on eBay, it is
accompanied
by a lot of hoopla about how rare it must be. It is listed as a Rarity 1.
This
means there are in excess of 1,250 examples believed to exist. That is a
lot of
examples. The same is true of the 1806/5, a Rarity 2 variety. (501-1,250
known).
The sad part is how excited folks can get about how clear the 5 is under the
6.
They ALL look like that. Like a 1917 Type 1 Standing Liberty Quarter with a
FULL HEAD!! Jay Cline estimates that 80% of this issue have great strikes
and
full heads. Or the 1881 S Morgan Dollar. It is probably easy to hype
typically
found qualities of coins unfamiliar to newbies. That's why study is so
important.
I remember getting all excited at the opportunity to pick up a nice example
of the Stone Mountain Commemorative Half Dollar with very clear hub
doubling on the obverse. Then I found out about a third of them come with
that feature. More learning.
Ain't this fun?
Aram.

"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message
...

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...

"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message
...

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
I'm trying to figure out the 1825 quarters.

1) Browning clearly states that B-1 is "1825 over 1822" while B-2 is
"1825
over 1823." But for B-3, which shares the same obverse die as B-2,
he
beats around the bush, not quite calling it "1825 over 1824." What's
the
truth on this?

2) Isn't it odd that Greysheet and Coin Values list values for all
three
overdates, but the Redbook only lists values for "5 over 2" and "5
over
4."

3) Have any varieties beyond B-3 been identified since Browning did
his
work?

James

Excellent questions, all. When I got into this series many years ago,
I
learned that
there are two obverse dies and three reverse dies used in 1825. There
is
speculation,
and I believe Larry Briggs found very tiny differences in the obverse
dies,
so there
might be another, but I have not seen these differences myself.
AFAIK, no collector of this series by die marriage looks at the date.
(Other than to see
that it is an 1825.) We use the reverse to distinguish between the
Browning
2 and the
Browning 3 by the location of the value, 25 C. The low 25 C. is the
Browning 3; the
high 25 C. is the Browning 2. There are die states in both of these
varieties which
are of interest to specialists, including highly valued retained and
complete cuds caused by
reverse rim to rim die breaks.
The 1825 B1 uses a completely different obverse die. It is quite easy
to
distinguish from
B2 and 3 by the location of the 13th star (Lowest right star). It is
not
under the curl, but
lies to the side (east) of it. This is, I believe, the rarest (R5) die
marriage of the three
known 1825 varieties. This was the one with the wrong picture in the
Red
Book.
I am of the opinion that price guides have limited usefulness in this
series
when it comes
to comparative values, demand, supply, and , in general, what should
and
should not be
listed. They are, I think, for popular consumption, and not for
collectors
who are deeply
into the series. But that is true of other series as well, don't you
think?
I also think that
the EAC has had a major impact on collectors of early copper because of
the
existence
of "Copper Quotes by Robinson" which describes and values all varieties
of
Large
and Half Cents in one place. I think that the Bust Quarter series
suffers
from a lack of "Quarter
Quotes by Haroutunian", but I am still working on it. :-)
All kidding aside, there was an attempt to publish such a work, but it
wasn't readily
accepted by the Bust Quarter collectors of that time. I am not sure
why,
but I have heard
that the project was rejected when the author and researcher sold his
collection shortly
after publication. Made it look kinda suspicious, I think.
There have been a couple of new die marriage discoveries since I
started
collecting
these beauties. And the question of rarity remains an ongoing and ever
changing
conundrum. To me, that's where the fun lies. Sureness often leads to
boredom.
HTH. Aram.

Thanks for that thoughtful response, Aram. I'll look forward to the
publication of the first edition of "QQH." 8)

I'm fascinated by Browning's observation that the reverse of 1825 B-1 is
the
same as the reverse for the 1824, with the spike coming off the back of
the
bottom arrowhead toward the olive branch. That would allow one to
attribute
the date/variety from the reverse alone!

That said, I looked at the 5s on my 1825 B-2 and B-3 under a 30X scope.
What a mess! The 5s seem to be misshapen, and the underlying 4s are
rather
rough, to say the least. I can see why specialists don't get too excited
about these "overdates." I'm thinking much the same thing about the 1818
B-1, the "1818 over 1815." What's your take on that one?

James


You're welcome. That reverse is also found on the 1828 Browning 2. I
believe
this marriage to be pretty rare. (R5)
I agree with your assessment of the 1818/5. It is not rare, AFAIK, and
the
same can
be said for a lot of "overdates" in the series. The most commonly found
variety of
the 1819 Bust Quarter is the Browning 3, with the repunched 5 and what
looks
like a colon after the C. But if you find this marriage on eBay, it is
accompanied
by a lot of hoopla about how rare it must be. It is listed as a Rarity 1.
This
means there are in excess of 1,250 examples believed to exist. That is a
lot of
examples. The same is true of the 1806/5, a Rarity 2 variety. (501-1,250
known).
The sad part is how excited folks can get about how clear the 5 is under
the
6.
They ALL look like that. Like a 1917 Type 1 Standing Liberty Quarter with
a
FULL HEAD!! Jay Cline estimates that 80% of this issue have great strikes
and
full heads. Or the 1881 S Morgan Dollar. It is probably easy to hype
typically
found qualities of coins unfamiliar to newbies. That's why study is so
important.
I remember getting all excited at the opportunity to pick up a nice
example
of the Stone Mountain Commemorative Half Dollar with very clear hub
doubling on the obverse. Then I found out about a third of them come with
that feature. More learning.
Ain't this fun?

Well, I for one DO get excited about how clear that 1806 over 5 quarter
looks! Even more so the 1807 over 6 large cent. There's just something
about that kind of thing. One thing I REALLY like is the terminal state of
1819 B-4, where it looks like someone had attempted to efface the date.
There's an 1817 large cent like that, too, N-12 if memory serves me
properly. The reverse of the 1811 dime is neat, too, especially if you have
a late-die state. And I do, heh, heh.

BTW, the fourth edition of Cline's book just came out, in case you're
interested. I picked up a copy at a show last weekend, but haven't realy
gone through it yet.

Dagnabbit, I looked at my Stone Mountain, and it's just garden variety, no
hub doubling or dub hubbling, or anything.

Yeah, I've seen the hype about the 19-3, but eBay seems to be full of
hyperbole. I look at the scan, then the book, then the price guide, and
then usually move on. But not always.

James