! A laughable George Washington on ebay

how does anyone know (Snip?)

Regarding the IP argument ie I wasn't there so I can't know...please. Take it
to its logical conclusion. I mean, the sun is hot. How do I know? Well I feel
the sun for one thing. But I've never been there. Maybe its really cold? How
can I know unless I've been there? Your implying that I can't know anything is
true unless I've been there. So then, how do I know the Titanic really hit an
iceberg? Maybe it was bombed! It's a dumb argument yes because it is without
CONTEXT.

So monk, you're missing the context. The fact is that Washington is one of the
most studied signatures available. Period. There are books covering his
signature and forgery types (see Kenneth Rendell for some great ones). I would
understand your argument better if it was an obscure person.

However consider even without the fact that its on ebay or is at an absurdly
low price or that the COA is nonexistant...even ignoring all of that if you do
the tinest bit of research it is pretty obvious. The ink for example- why the
hell hasn't it faded? why are we seeing the rest of the document? That's just
superficial- don't even get me started on the paper or sig itself.

The fact is, as Rich has written, there are amazing forensic tests that can and
have been done. "G Washington" (and incidently I think there is only one George
washington known to be in existance) is easily one of the most copied
signatures around. It's like Babe Ruth- why can't people find obscure people to
forge? Who'd know? Well because the interest is so high- even in the lay
person. Even my mother knows about "G Washington" and she has never collected
an autograph in her life.

Historical signatures are not like contemporary sigs- we've seen ALL the
changes that can occur. Thus we have a better understanding of what to look
for. and our knowledge of forgers, the market and forensic techniques has only
increased that. So please don't imply that we are just speculating. T

hese conversations are not an attack on all dealers-- don't defend someone who
criminalizes the hobby and makes negative headlines. It's not worth it.

"Robert de Ridder" wrote in message
l...

"Richard" schreef in bericht
...
If anyone has any question that this item is not even good for toilet
paper for
barefoot, then take me up on a bet.

That tiny little scrap. I don't need convincing it's no good for toilet
paper...

Which brings me to another point: how about those Topps cards with the
signatures of presidents. It seems to me that to get the pieces for those
cards, they'd have to had the signatures cut out of documents. To me this
is
a crime, since the historical context has been removed.

lots of that going on now (been happening with sports cards for a
while)....i noticed the same with alot of non sports cards in the last few
years... disney cards...1 walt signature "cut".....also with hulk cards...1
jack kirby (comic book legend) cut signature.....all i can think is...cut
from what?????? what did they destroy?

MrB



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i know you are the biggest in person jocker on here because that is how you
make cash, but does this mean that you personally dismiss the findings of
labs, experts, etc; in specific autograph fields?

MrB

"Barefootmk" wrote in message
...
all's i am saying is that there is NOT ONE PERSON ON HERE who seems to
know
what they are talking about as far as real and fake autographs...much less
something that may or may not be historical...
now chances are, you are right about it being a fake...in fact the chances
are
pretty f@#$ing good that you are correct...but how do you honestly know?
how
could you make that assumption? the guy obviously bought the item, it has
a coa
from an authenticator (whether you believe the company or not) and is
maybe
just trying to re sell or jsut get his money back...period...he doesn't
know
and you don't know...get off your high horse as you want everything to be
fake
that you see for sale, cause it just isn't true..and while there are a
large
majority of fakes out there, you never know BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE HERE DON'T
GET
PEOPLE IN PERSON.


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my point is that there are no forensic experts on this site...there are no
"qualified experts" running around on this site...so how do people qualify
themselves as an expert....i just really want to see real research- instead of
people just going "look at this laughable george washington on ebay" without
any kind of knowledge of what they are talking about...which i feel that there
is NOT ONE PERSON WHO hangs around this site have any qualifications of having.
they all have no knowledge...
ultimately- that item may be deemed fake...but who are you people to make that
assumption? that's all i am really asking.

I agree, I don't like clipped signatures one bit. The only time I
considered one was this person was selling a rare Star Wars signature
that was clipped. It apparently was a little kids notebook that the
kid had used a LOT and they were gonna chuck it and saw that one of
the pages contained the signature which the young kids got when this
celeb visited their class.

To cut from a drawing, document or even letter is a terrible
diservice.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:36:53 +1000, "Mr Black" mr_black@ REMOVE
SPAMBLOCK optusnet.com.au wrote:


"Robert de Ridder" wrote in message
. nl...

"Richard" schreef in bericht
...
If anyone has any question that this item is not even good for toilet
paper for
barefoot, then take me up on a bet.

That tiny little scrap. I don't need convincing it's no good for toilet
paper...

Which brings me to another point: how about those Topps cards with the
signatures of presidents. It seems to me that to get the pieces for those
cards, they'd have to had the signatures cut out of documents. To me this
is
a crime, since the historical context has been removed.

lots of that going on now (been happening with sports cards for a
while)....i noticed the same with alot of non sports cards in the last few
years... disney cards...1 walt signature "cut".....also with hulk cards...1
jack kirby (comic book legend) cut signature.....all i can think is...cut
from what?????? what did they destroy?

MrB



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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.650 / Virus Database: 416 - Release Date: 4/4/2004




www.starwarsautographcollecting.com
http://dahoov2.topcities.com

I don't think anyone here ever claimed to be an expert in anything on
here. Some of us specialize in signatures of a certain area, but
NOBODY here is 100% sure about anything. I don't think I ever saw a
post where anyone claimed to be. So I don't know what the argument is
about.

On 28 Apr 2004 05:24:33 GMT, (Barefootmk) wrote:

my point is that there are no forensic experts on this site...there are no
"qualified experts" running around on this site...so how do people qualify
themselves as an expert....i just really want to see real research- instead of
people just going "look at this laughable george washington on ebay" without
any kind of knowledge of what they are talking about...which i feel that there
is NOT ONE PERSON WHO hangs around this site have any qualifications of having.
they all have no knowledge...
ultimately- that item may be deemed fake...but who are you people to make that
assumption? that's all i am really asking.



www.starwarsautographcollecting.com
http://dahoov2.topcities.com

I think we are beating a dead horse...

Regarding 'experts'"

1.Rich has testified at various forgery trials under the court of law. Whatever
you think of the rest of us, they don't let any guy off the street do it.

2. I have already cited the work of Mr. Rendell as one forensic expert. I could
type excerpts from his book but that would break serious copyright laws. So
doubters- read it. A little education never hurt.

another thing- most of washington's letters were written and signed by his
aide-de-camp. So there is another signature you must evaluate.

besides why are we on the defensive? i would appreciate some arguments about
the authenticity of the autograph. judgements. Discussing our ability to
evaluate it is avoiding the issue. Rich is ready to put his money where his
mouth is- I think true doubters should do the same.