Need some French terms defined

As I look at who was involved in the making of French stamps and banknotes,
I'm getting confused on what the roles of the individuals are. Perhaps
someone here can help. Typically these acronyms are found after a name, and
I'm wondering whether someone could give me definitions:

SC (a sculpte)
INV (a invente)
FEC (a fait)
DEL (a dessine)

I'm not a total bonehead on these terms, they sound rather obvious outside
the context of stamp or banknote production. But specifically as they relate
to that task, can someone define what each type of person actually does?

Thanks
Dave

Dave wrote :
As I look at who was involved in the making of French stamps and
banknotes, I'm getting confused on what the roles of the individuals
are. Perhaps someone here can help. Typically these acronyms are
found after a name, and I'm wondering whether someone could give me
definitions:
SC (a sculpte)
INV (a invente)
FEC (a fait)
DEL (a dessine)

I'm not a total bonehead on these terms, they sound rather obvious
outside the context of stamp or banknote production. But specifically
as they relate to that task, can someone define what each type of
person actually does?
Thanks
Dave


Hi Dave,

If I recall correctly, we already had here a similar discussion months
(years ?) ago.

The only thing I can answer right now is that these acronyms are in fact
the begining of latine words :

Sculptit
Inventit
Fecit
Deleinatit (or a similar word : my latine - 50 years ago - is too rusty
to remember correctly these difficult words ... )

HTH

--

All the best,
Pierre Courtiade

"Pierre COURTIADE" wrote :
Dave wrote :

As I look at who was involved in the making of French stamps and
banknotes, I'm getting confused on what the roles of the
individuals
are. Perhaps someone here can help. Typically these acronyms are
found after a name, and I'm wondering whether someone could give me
definitions:
SC (a sculpte)
INV (a invente)
FEC (a fait)
DEL (a dessine)

I'm not a total bonehead on these terms, they sound rather obvious
outside the context of stamp or banknote production. But
specifically
as they relate to that task, can someone define what each type of

The only thing I can answer right now is that these acronyms are in
fact the begining of latine words :

Vale, mi fili ;-)

Sculptit

Sculpsit ?

Inventit

Invenit ?

Fecit
Deleinatit (or a similar word : my latine - 50 years ago - is too
rusty to remember correctly these difficult words ... )

Delineavit ?

Anyway, grosso modo :

X Inv means that X was the author of the original design (a sketch,
most often)
X Del means that X produced the definitive sketch of the stamp, that
is a precise model for the engraver.
X Sc means that X engraved the dye.

I am not so easy with "Fecit" (he made it), which might encompass two
or three among the above terms.

The "Peace and Commerce" allegory 1876-1900 series is probably the
most striking example among french stamps, with three of those terms
featuring :

J.A. Sage Inv : Jules-Auguste Sage produced a sketch that was selected
by a jury, on it's artistic value, but there remained details needing
modifications for engraving (e.g. line or dashed line patterns needed
to be changed into flat colored surfaces, or the design needed be
modified for larger face value figures, or for different captions...)

E. Mouchon Del & Sc : Eugene Mouchon produced the final drawing (in
view of engraving), and then engraved a dye.

I am referring here to the typographic and recess stamp-printing
contexts, but it may be transposed to other ways of producing stamps
and stamp dyes.

--
Cordialement,
Bruno

"Pierre COURTIADE" wrote in message
...

Hi Dave,

If I recall correctly, we already had here a similar discussion months
(years ?) ago.

I'll poke around and see if I can bring that back up, thanks.

The only thing I can answer right now is that these acronyms are in fact
the begining of latine words :

Sculptit
Inventit
Fecit
Deleinatit (or a similar word : my latine - 50 years ago - is too rusty to
remember correctly these difficult words ... )

HTH

--

All the best,
Pierre Courtiade


Thank you Pierre, I hadn't realized these were latin. My French catalog has
given me the general definitions, in French as I listed above. But perhaps
my question wasn't completely clear. I really don't need a translation of
the words, I'm looking for what they actually mean, in the implementation.

For example, the Sage issues have "Sage, INV" written in the bottom margin.
My catalog definition would translate that to "Sage, invented", which to me
is bizarre as I don't think there is an "invention" here. Later, the typo
Gandon Marianne issues state "Gandon DEL" - and my catalog definition would
translate that to "Gandon, drew this" - which probably makes sense, and they
also state "Cortot SC" which I would translate as "Cortot sculpted this".
I'm not aware of this design coming from a sculpture, so perhaps the usage
"SC" actually means that Cortot "engraved" this issue - ie converted it from
the Gandon artwork to the physical medium for typography?

I hope that helps clarify what I'm looking for.

Dave

Interesting post and discussion! bravo.

"bc92"
The "Peace and Commerce" allegory 1876-1900 series is probably the most
striking example among french stamps, with three of those terms featuring
:
Bruno

"bc92" wrote in message
...


X Inv means that X was the author of the original design (a sketch, most
often)
X Del means that X produced the definitive sketch of the stamp, that is a
precise model for the engraver.
X Sc means that X engraved the dye.

I am not so easy with "Fecit" (he made it), which might encompass two or
three among the above terms.

The "Peace and Commerce" allegory 1876-1900 series is probably the most
striking example among french stamps, with three of those terms featuring
:

J.A. Sage Inv : Jules-Auguste Sage produced a sketch that was selected by
a jury, on it's artistic value, but there remained details needing
modifications for engraving (e.g. line or dashed line patterns needed to
be changed into flat colored surfaces, or the design needed be modified
for larger face value figures, or for different captions...)

E. Mouchon Del & Sc : Eugene Mouchon produced the final drawing (in view
of engraving), and then engraved a dye.

I am referring here to the typographic and recess stamp-printing contexts,
but it may be transposed to other ways of producing stamps and stamp dyes.

--
Cordialement,
Bruno

Ah, wonderful Bruno, thank you!!

Dave

Dave a écrit:

For example, the Sage issues have "Sage, INV" written in the bottom
margin. My catalog definition would translate that to "Sage, invented",
which to me is bizarre as I don't think there is an "invention" here.

Hi,

Let say Sage is the author.

For the sower, Roty is the author (inv) of this plaque
http://timbreposte.free.fr/mag-timbr...al-semeuse.jpg

The design for the stamp is from Mouchon (del), the translation
from a design (painting, ...) to a line only design isn't always
an easy task.

Later, the typo Gandon Marianne issues state "Gandon DEL" - and my
catalog definition would translate that to "Gandon, drew this" - which
probably makes sense, and they also state "Cortot SC" which I would
translate as "Cortot sculpted this". I'm not aware of this design coming
from a sculpture, so perhaps the usage "SC" actually means that Cortot
"engraved" this issue - ie converted it from the Gandon artwork to the
physical medium for typography?

Yes, a die (typographic or intaglio) is a sculpture, sc is
for the engraver.

It's a 3 dimension work ; it's a bit like sculpting stone,
the artist remove hard matter, although the size is smaller :
similar tools are used (chisel, burin) ; no hammer for
the die !

It wasn't easy to make a typographic
version of Gandon engraving, several artists have produced
dies (Cortot : 2, Hourriez, Frères, I may miss one)
http://www.dieproofs.it/archivio/pro...&spgmFilters=t


There is a tradition on French stamps, the authors
are at the bottom of the stamp.

On left, the design author (inv, eventually del).
At right the engraver (sometimes del ; and sc).

If there is only one author, it's on the right.

It explains why everybody thinks Dulac is the engraver
of his London Marianne.

For the FEC sign, I've never seen it (is it a banknote
thing ?). Perharps it has something to do with collaborative
work ; where a "senior" engraver (sc) do the delicate work (portrait
for instance) and a "junior" engraver do the fillings and
geometric work (fec ?).

--
Cordialement
Dominique Stéphan
http://www.blog-philatelie.com/ Mon blog philatélie
http://www.timbre-poste.com/ Timbres-poste d'usage courant
http://amisdemarianne.free.fr/ Cercle des Amis de Marianne

"rodney" wrote in message
...
Interesting post and discussion! bravo.

An even more because permanents from RCSD and FRP participate in it. The
philately is universal :-)

--
Victor Manta

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Dominique Stéphan schrieb:
Dave a écrit:

For example, the Sage issues have "Sage, INV" written in the bottom
margin. My catalog definition would translate that to "Sage,
invented", which to me is bizarre as I don't think there is an
"invention" here.

Hi,

Let say Sage is the author.

For the sower, Roty is the author (inv) of this plaque
http://timbreposte.free.fr/mag-timbr...al-semeuse.jpg


The design for the stamp is from Mouchon (del), the translation
from a design (painting, ...) to a line only design isn't always
an easy task.

Later, the typo Gandon Marianne issues state "Gandon DEL" - and my
catalog definition would translate that to "Gandon, drew this" - which
probably makes sense, and they also state "Cortot SC" which I would
translate as "Cortot sculpted this". I'm not aware of this design
coming from a sculpture, so perhaps the usage "SC" actually means that
Cortot "engraved" this issue - ie converted it from the Gandon artwork
to the physical medium for typography?

Yes, a die (typographic or intaglio) is a sculpture, sc is
for the engraver.

It's a 3 dimension work ; it's a bit like sculpting stone,
the artist remove hard matter, although the size is smaller :
similar tools are used (chisel, burin) ; no hammer for
the die !

It wasn't easy to make a typographic
version of Gandon engraving, several artists have produced
dies (Cortot : 2, Hourriez, Frères, I may miss one)
http://www.dieproofs.it/archivio/pro...&spgmFilters=t


There is a tradition on French stamps, the authors
are at the bottom of the stamp.

On left, the design author (inv, eventually del).
At right the engraver (sometimes del ; and sc).

If there is only one author, it's on the right.

It explains why everybody thinks Dulac is the engraver
of his London Marianne.

For the FEC sign, I've never seen it (is it a banknote
thing ?). Perharps it has something to do with collaborative
work ; where a "senior" engraver (sc) do the delicate work (portrait
for instance) and a "junior" engraver do the fillings and
geometric work (fec ?).


Hi Dave and all,

let´s go back to the 19th century and the art of steel engraving:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_engraving

There are many landscape pictures, for example by William Henry
Bartlett, who painted them.

For a printing of these pictures he needed a steel engraving, often done
by Albert Henry Payne.

If You look at these pictures You can often read in the bottom line:

Bartlett pinxit and Payne sculpit, the latin words for "painted" and
"engraved".

For example:

http://www.staatliche-bibliothek-pas.../phs/m012.html

You can also find the "del" on these pictures:

http://www.staatliche-bibliothek-pas...d/phs/088.html

or he

http://www.staatliche-bibliothek-pas.../phs/m007.html

You can also find bottom line inscriptions as "del et sc.":

http://cgi.ebay.at/alter-Stahlstich-... cmdZViewItem

In my opinion the "del." is the abbreviation of "delinere" what means
"drawing", but I am not sure.


A steel engraving is mostly art work of two different artists, the
painter and the engraver, so both are mentioned.

There was no reason do handle it in a different way with stamps and
stamps engraving I think.

My five pence to this.

kind regards

Gerhard

"Gerhard Reichert" wrote in message
...

http://www.staatliche-bibliothek-pas.../phs/m007.html

You can also find bottom line inscriptions as "del et sc.":

http://cgi.ebay.at/alter-Stahlstich-Neurathen-A-H-Payne-del-et-sc_W0QQitemZ160242908824QQihZ006QQcategoryZ81909Q QcmdZViewItem

Yes, in fact the Peace & Commerce issue lists "Sage INV" on the left side,
and "Mouchon D&S" on the right, now I know what that refers to.

In my opinion the "del." is the abbreviation of "delinere" what means
"drawing", but I am not sure.

My banknote catalog, as well as an earlier post by Bruno list DEL as being
"Delineavit"

Thanks for the connections to steel engraving, Gerhard

Dave