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OT. Personal responsibility vs. collective one. On this day in History....12th Dec



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 13th 03, 09:03 AM
Victor Manta
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Default OT. Personal responsibility vs. collective one. On this day in History....12th Dec

Rodney,

Sorry, I don't exactly understand where is your problem. Have you directly
participated in these atrocities or have you somehow, by your business or
political activity or something like this contributed to it? Why should you
or people of your generation feel responsible for things that happened a
long time before you and they were born?

Just the illustrate my thoughts read this fictive news:

"The President of the Mongolian Republic has offered his apology to the
Chinese and to Russian people for the atrocities committed by his ancestors
in the distant past."

What does it bring, what does it change? Should by chance Mongolians start
paying compensations to hundreds of millions people?

My points a

- We are responsible only for what we are personally doing. Neither our
relatives, not our compatriots can be considered guilty for our faults, and
vice-versa, and this as well in the present as for the past.

- The idea of the guilt of parents for what have done their adult children,
and vice-versa, was and is the guiding principle of the most retrograde and
repressive societies.

Victor Manta

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"Rodney" wrote in message
...
I thought I detected some pride there KUK
and I know where you are coming from.
I didn't mean to offend, and I take your point.

It was just yesterday, I viewed a documentary on history
of our treatment of the Aborigines here, the
genocide our early settler's practiced in Western Victoria.
Our current Prime Minister hasn't the bottle
to offer a simple apology.

Merry Christmas.


(Remove gum to reply)


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  #2  
Old December 13th 03, 10:42 AM
Rodney
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Default

Hi Victor,
My problem is that we have had, from what I can see
a selective history ethic in our schools, which is however,
changing for the better.

I personally do feel some responsibility, not for what has
happened in the past, but for some in my generation that
do not have the generosity of spirit to offer a simple
apology, that goes toward reconciliation of our collective
whole.

One can argue the folly or otherwise, of such feeling or desire,
but the fact remains, it is what I feel in my heart, not my head.
What cost an apology? I feel empathy for these poor people
that have been so abused in our past, I think it brotherly to show
we share and understand their pain.

Rgds




  #3  
Old December 13th 03, 11:01 AM
Rodney
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Victor,
Should you need to read further into our history,
I offer the following link.
http://www.lib.latrobe.edu.au/AHR/ar...1998/bird.html
This is not hundreds of years ago, but as late as the thirties
and even into the 1950's, a mere heartbeat away.

Many of the short entries from confidential submissions contain
phrases of a poignant wistfulness that is so very sad: 'I've often thought,
as old as I am, that it would have been lovely to have known a father and
a mother, to know parents even for a little while, just to have had the
opportunity of having a mother tuck you into bed and give you a good-night kiss
-- but it was never to be.' The writer of that sentence in Confidential submission
number 65, was fostered at two months of age, in 1936 in Tasmania.
And a woman who was sent to the Cootamundra Girls' Home in the 1950s
gives us in Confidential submission number 332 a vivid picture from her memory:
'I remember all we children being herded up, like a mob of cattle, and feeling
the humiliation of being graded by the colour of our skins for
the government records'.



--

(Remove gum to reply)


"Rodney" wrote in message ...
| Hi Victor,
| My problem is that we have had, from what I can see
| a selective history ethic in our schools, which is however,
| changing for the better.
|
| I personally do feel some responsibility, not for what has
| happened in the past, but for some in my generation that
| do not have the generosity of spirit to offer a simple
| apology, that goes toward reconciliation of our collective
| whole.
|
| One can argue the folly or otherwise, of such feeling or desire,
| but the fact remains, it is what I feel in my heart, not my head.
| What cost an apology? I feel empathy for these poor people
| that have been so abused in our past, I think it brotherly to show
| we share and understand their pain.
|
| Rgds
|
|
|
|


  #4  
Old December 13th 03, 11:44 AM
Victor Manta
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Posts: n/a
Default

Our current Prime Minister hasn't the bottle
to offer a simple apology. (Rodney)


Hi Rodney,

Of course, it is your right to "feel in my heart, not my head" or anyway
else. :-) You are also free to present your excuses to anyone you wish for
anything you wish (as long as you do it in your name).

It isn't the same for a Prime Minister to present excuses, as long as
neither s/he nor people that s/he represents directly participated in these
crimes.

It is necessary and sufficient that the Constitution of a country qualifies
these kind of behavior as crimes and enforces the corresponding laws. As
much as I know, this is the case for your country.

This hopefully answers your second posting too.

Greetings,

Victor Manta

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Remove "um" from the e-mail address to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rodney" wrote in message
...
Hi Victor,
My problem is that we have had, from what I can see
a selective history ethic in our schools, which is however,
changing for the better.

I personally do feel some responsibility, not for what has
happened in the past, but for some in my generation that
do not have the generosity of spirit to offer a simple
apology, that goes toward reconciliation of our collective
whole.

One can argue the folly or otherwise, of such feeling or desire,
but the fact remains, it is what I feel in my heart, not my head.
What cost an apology? I feel empathy for these poor people
that have been so abused in our past, I think it brotherly to show
we share and understand their pain.

Rgds





  #5  
Old December 13th 03, 03:14 PM
Peter Aitken
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Victor Manta" wrote in message
...
Our current Prime Minister hasn't the bottle
to offer a simple apology. (Rodney)


Hi Rodney,

Of course, it is your right to "feel in my heart, not my head" or anyway
else. :-) You are also free to present your excuses to anyone you wish for
anything you wish (as long as you do it in your name).

It isn't the same for a Prime Minister to present excuses, as long as
neither s/he nor people that s/he represents directly participated in

these
crimes.

It is necessary and sufficient that the Constitution of a country

qualifies
these kind of behavior as crimes and enforces the corresponding laws. As
much as I know, this is the case for your country.

This hopefully answers your second posting too.

Greetings,

Victor Manta


Victor,

I think you nee to realize that apologies fall into two categories. One, the
kind you are talking about, is when there is direct personal responsibility.
The other is simply a way of expressing regret. For example, if your
friend's mother died you might well say "I am sorry that your mother died"
even though it had nothing to do with you. I think this is the sort of
apology that is being discussed here. If the prime minister made such an
apology it would not be an admission that present day white Australians bear
any personal responsibility for events long ago. Rather it would be an
acknowledgement and expression of regret that this wretched treatment of the
native people *did* happen.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.



  #6  
Old December 13th 03, 05:08 PM
Victor Manta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Peter,

Therefore, as I understand your opinion, the First Minister of Mongolia
should indeed present his excuses to Russia, China and to dozens of other
countries, because the atrocities committed by his ancestors in the distant
past *did* happen.

And that, consequently, the official, elected representatives of different
native tribes worldwide should officially present their apologies for the
massacres that they permanently perpetrated in the past against all who
happened to live on the same territory (natives like them or not)?

I just wonder if I speak here about a third category of massacres and
injustices, about which any remembrance is politically incorrect...

I continue to think that a country shows its respect for the humans of the
past, present and future by implementing a proper political system and not
by (thousand of) reciprocal excuses for times when the individual rights
weren't properly observed (by nobody!).

Victor Manta

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org
Art on Stamps: http://values.ch
Romania Shown by Its Stamps: http://marci-postale.com
Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/
Spanish Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/
Remove "um" from the e-mail address to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Peter Aitken" wrote in message
.com...
"Victor Manta" wrote in message
...
Our current Prime Minister hasn't the bottle
to offer a simple apology. (Rodney)


Hi Rodney,

Of course, it is your right to "feel in my heart, not my head" or anyway
else. :-) You are also free to present your excuses to anyone you wish

for
anything you wish (as long as you do it in your name).

It isn't the same for a Prime Minister to present excuses, as long as
neither s/he nor people that s/he represents directly participated in

these
crimes.

It is necessary and sufficient that the Constitution of a country

qualifies
these kind of behavior as crimes and enforces the corresponding laws. As
much as I know, this is the case for your country.

This hopefully answers your second posting too.

Greetings,

Victor Manta


Victor,

I think you nee to realize that apologies fall into two categories. One,

the
kind you are talking about, is when there is direct personal

responsibility.
The other is simply a way of expressing regret. For example, if your
friend's mother died you might well say "I am sorry that your mother died"
even though it had nothing to do with you. I think this is the sort of
apology that is being discussed here. If the prime minister made such an
apology it would not be an admission that present day white Australians

bear
any personal responsibility for events long ago. Rather it would be an
acknowledgement and expression of regret that this wretched treatment of

the
native people *did* happen.


--
Peter Aitken



  #7  
Old December 13th 03, 05:35 PM
Dave
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

As a white person in the United States, I'm often made to feel guilty
about slavery.
Since my ancestors all imigrated to Canada in the early to mid-1800s,
never owned slaves and never had anything to do with slavery in any form I
cannot feel any guilt.
Another line is used that even so, you have benifited from slavery.
Well so have the decsendents of the slaves as they live in a country far
better, far freer, more prosperous and with a high standard of living when
compared to any of the present day countries of Africa their ancestors may
have come from. By the reverse you can also say the troubles in Liberia
have been caused by freed American slaves (curious history there and my
first experience that African Black people did not like American Black
people).
There isn't a country on this planet that hasn't been responsible for
wrongs commited on another country or its own people. The far better thing
for all of us to do is to stop apologizing or trying to inflict guilt on
others, work to live together in peace and harmony.
Dave (whew!)
"Victor Manta" wrote in message
...
Peter,

Therefore, as I understand your opinion, the First Minister of Mongolia
should indeed present his excuses to Russia, China and to dozens of other
countries, because the atrocities committed by his ancestors in the

distant
past *did* happen.

And that, consequently, the official, elected representatives of different
native tribes worldwide should officially present their apologies for the
massacres that they permanently perpetrated in the past against all who
happened to live on the same territory (natives like them or not)?

I just wonder if I speak here about a third category of massacres and
injustices, about which any remembrance is politically incorrect...

I continue to think that a country shows its respect for the humans of the
past, present and future by implementing a proper political system and not
by (thousand of) reciprocal excuses for times when the individual rights
weren't properly observed (by nobody!).

Victor Manta

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-
Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org
Art on Stamps: http://values.ch
Romania Shown by Its Stamps: http://marci-postale.com
Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/
Spanish Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/
Remove "um" from the e-mail address to reply
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-
"Peter Aitken" wrote in message
.com...
"Victor Manta" wrote in message
...
Our current Prime Minister hasn't the bottle
to offer a simple apology. (Rodney)

Hi Rodney,

Of course, it is your right to "feel in my heart, not my head" or

anyway
else. :-) You are also free to present your excuses to anyone you wish

for
anything you wish (as long as you do it in your name).

It isn't the same for a Prime Minister to present excuses, as long as
neither s/he nor people that s/he represents directly participated in

these
crimes.

It is necessary and sufficient that the Constitution of a country

qualifies
these kind of behavior as crimes and enforces the corresponding laws.

As
much as I know, this is the case for your country.

This hopefully answers your second posting too.

Greetings,

Victor Manta


Victor,

I think you nee to realize that apologies fall into two categories. One,

the
kind you are talking about, is when there is direct personal

responsibility.
The other is simply a way of expressing regret. For example, if your
friend's mother died you might well say "I am sorry that your mother

died"
even though it had nothing to do with you. I think this is the sort of
apology that is being discussed here. If the prime minister made such an
apology it would not be an admission that present day white Australians

bear
any personal responsibility for events long ago. Rather it would be an
acknowledgement and expression of regret that this wretched treatment of

the
native people *did* happen.


--
Peter Aitken





  #8  
Old December 13th 03, 08:29 PM
Grandpa
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Posts: n/a
Default

Dave wrote:

As a white person in the United States, I'm often made to feel guilty
about slavery.


As another white person in the US, our response (stupid IMO) is to give
those we feel sorry for having done something against in the distant
past, some form of monetary renumeration and special treatment, be it
lower university tuition or affirmative action, which is nothing more
than reverse descrimination.

I only mention it because I find it interesting that some find (as I do)
that a simple but sincere "I'm sorry" is appropriate for those things
that occurred so long ago that you personally had no hand in and are not
responsible for.

So I wonder if there will be an "I'm Sorry" stamp one day?

  #9  
Old December 13th 03, 09:31 PM
Victor Manta
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Posts: n/a
Default

Fully agree on the first part. Not a long time ago, I have read that there
were in the US black individuals who owned other black individuals. So that
even if some accept the idea of compensations after hundreds of years, I
wonder how can it be possible to find out who should pay whom under these
circumstances?

As for a stamp with "I'm sorry" on it, I think that the most representative
stamps for the idea of individual liberty are those that show the
implementation of the fundamental ideas that gradually brought liberty to
all citizens. I mean by this the stamps dedicated to the US Constitution,
for example Sc. No: 2412-14, 2355-59, 835, 2336-48, 798, 2360.

Victor Manta

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org
Art on Stamps: http://values.ch
Romania Shown by Its Stamps: http://marci-postale.com
Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/
Spanish Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/
Remove "um" from the e-mail address to reply
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"Grandpa" jsdebooATcomcast.net wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:

As a white person in the United States, I'm often made to feel

guilty
about slavery.


As another white person in the US, our response (stupid IMO) is to give
those we feel sorry for having done something against in the distant
past, some form of monetary renumeration and special treatment, be it
lower university tuition or affirmative action, which is nothing more
than reverse descrimination.

I only mention it because I find it interesting that some find (as I do)
that a simple but sincere "I'm sorry" is appropriate for those things
that occurred so long ago that you personally had no hand in and are not
responsible for.

So I wonder if there will be an "I'm Sorry" stamp one day?


  #10  
Old December 14th 03, 01:06 AM
Grandpa
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Posts: n/a
Default

Victor Manta wrote:

Fully agree on the first part. Not a long time ago, I have read that there
were in the US black individuals who owned other black individuals. So that
even if some accept the idea of compensations after hundreds of years, I
wonder how can it be possible to find out who should pay whom under these
circumstances?


One of the strangest dialogues that took place was between the unknown
and apparent offspring of Thomas Jefferson who were black and the known
off-spring. It seems Mr J had a lady on the side. All sorts of
allegations surfaced, then all of a sudden it got real quiet and dropped
out of the news. I'm unsure how it finally played out. I know for a
fact that renumeration and other things are constantly coming up in the
news between the US Government and the Native Americans (Indians if you
prefer). Happens often here in New Mexico too.

As for a stamp with "I'm sorry" on it, I think that the most representative
stamps for the idea of individual liberty are those that show the
implementation of the fundamental ideas that gradually brought liberty to
all citizens. I mean by this the stamps dedicated to the US Constitution,
for example Sc. No: 2412-14, 2355-59, 835, 2336-48, 798, 2360.


Good point, reaffirming what it is supposed to mean.

 




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