on handwriting

On Fri, 07 May 2004 22:32:23 GMT, "KCat" wrote:

I would ask - have you ever practiced Calligraphy? And if not, then you
might read Mr. Pickering's approach to practical italic handwriting as well
as look into the Getty/Dubay book.

Yes, both Chinese brush and English calligraphy - the first since
language school in 1972 and 1974 and the latter for the last two
years. That's why I purchased recently two flexible nib pens. I've
been practicing English calligraphy, including the italic writing
which I finally decided plateaus for me - I'm going back to cursive
completely. I have a Dubay book, but not sure which one since I'm not
using it lately. I'm using several cursive texts that go back quite a
ways in origin.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"Curtis L. Russell" wrote in message
...

Yes, both Chinese brush and English calligraphy

I would fail miserably at Chinese brush calligraphy. But I admire it
greatly and those who can do it. I can barely draw a straight line with a
ruler. And don't ask me to use scissors.

The book I"m referring to is "Write Now" which isn't instruction for
calligraphy per se but incorporating the techniques of the Italic hand in
everyday writing with everyday writing instruments (ie, not FPs or edged
pens.) I wouldn't say my handwriting "pretty" (though passable with an
edged pen) but it is legible most of the time. :P It struck me as odd
though that my writing improves after I've taken my night meds (I have lupus
and fibromyalgia which prevent solid sleep.) I write larger and more
expressively. I think this is owed to the fact that writing problems often
occur when people strain too much or let their inner critic dictate their
hand. When I'm fully alert and "sober" I am very conscious of my writing
and also have intention tremors to battle. Though I don't put much stock in
using handwriting to analyze personality, I think it's fair to say that I'm
very self-conscious in general and this translates to very tight letters.
In public I also speak very softly (to the consternation of wait staff who
can't help it if they get my order wrong...)

Hard to imagine I'm actually a wallflower, eh? ;-)

Enjoyed the discussion, truly. There's no wrong way, IMO. Just what works
for the individual.

funny thing - I have been told I *do* have nice handwriting by my husband.
He once referred to my journals as "works of art" (I sure can't see it!) I
think it's merely because he prints everything - he's an engineer and has
incorporated his training in mechanical drawing into his handwriting.
'Cause I guarantee you most of my correspondents would strongly disagree
with his assessment. Makes me wonder if the folks who admired Juan's
handwriting did not do so from a legibility POV but from an aesthetics POV.
As someone stated - you can have very beautiful handwriting that isn't
legible.

babble babble - yes, I have had my night meds. :P I should never stay
on-line this late.

ta.
kcat

On Sat, 08 May 2004 05:05:49 GMT, "KCat" wrote:

I would fail miserably at Chinese brush calligraphy. But I admire it
greatly and those who can do it. I can barely draw a straight line with a
ruler. And don't ask me to use scissors.

The interesting thing about brush calligarphy is that the focus is on
proper direction and depth, meaning that the brush doesn't make the
same contact through the stroke, but (usually) increases, then lifts.
When you focus on doing those elements properly through the stroke,
the 'straightness' seems to take care of itself.

I'm waiting to see if the same is true to some degree with cursive
with a flex nib.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

"Curtis L. Russell" wrote in message
...
The interesting thing about brush calligarphy is that the focus is on
proper direction and depth, meaning that the brush doesn't make the
same contact through the stroke, but (usually) increases, then lifts.
When you focus on doing those elements properly through the stroke,
the 'straightness' seems to take care of itself.

I'm waiting to see if the same is true to some degree with cursive
with a flex nib.

probably - don't know if you keep up with Pentrace but there was post from
yesterday - Antonios showed a "movie" of how he evaluates the amount of flex
in a nib. To my eye, that same concept was being applied to a degree but
having never tried brush calligraphy I can't be certain. Mr. Pickering (and
other masters of lettering) say that the hand, wrist, and fingers should not
guide the letter forms but the arm and shoulder. So it sounds like brush
calligraphy uses this same basic approach. I do find that my efforts are
more pleasant and legible when I do this - another aspect of "relaxing" vs.
straining to draw the perfect letter.

"Bluesea" wrote in message ...
"Juan" wrote in message
om...
"Bluesea" wrote in message
...
"Juan" wrote in message
om...
Hi, I recently have received some "complaints" from some friends and
coworkers about my handwriting. It is cursive, and I use F/M nibs (of
course fps). What's going on? My handwriting is not bad; it is not
like that rounded and separated letters some (most) people use though.
A coworker even suggested me to use printing (!!!???)
Do I have to pretend I'm in kindergarden so as my handwriting can be
read or what? Has anyone had similar experiences?

Note: I know that since you haven't seen my handwriting it might seem
hard to have an opinion, but trust me, it is not bad, just cursive
with a fountain pen.

Juan

Yeah, opinions are subjective and since we can't see a sample here, all
we
have to go by is what you posted.

You say it's not bad, yet you've had friends and co-workers complain and
one
even suggested that you print.

Do the math.

(Have you tried an XF nib? My writing looks much nicer w/ an XF than
with a
M.)


Let's see:

A.- In the past some people use to think that my handwriting was nice
B.- My handwriting hasn't changed
C.- Now, some people (not those in A) think it is hard to read

The handwriting I pointed to in the mentioned site is NOT mine; I
write with broader and more rounded letters.
As for the different angle I use with a fp: every fp user writes with
a similar angle than the one I use; otherwise, the fp simply doesn't
work properly. Do you write with a 85 angle when using a fp?

Well, as I indicated in my reply to your example post, it's hard to tell w/o
seeing a sample of *your* handwriting. Posting a link to an example of
someone else's handwriting then telling us that your handwriting is better
really doesn't absolve you, especially since the example is atrocious. It
says to me that your writing is still bad.

As to the angle, you said that you use a different angle when using a fp
than when you use a bp. The angle at which I hold a writing instrument
doesn't change depending on the instrument whether it be a fp, bp, or
pencil. Being nearly vertical, an angle of 85 degrees seems rather extreme
anyway.

The bottom line is that you've got people complaining and while you may hope
to blame their reading, I haven't seen anything that entices me to support
your position that it can't be because of your writing. Therefore, the
burden of allaying their complaints, whether it's by changing your
handwriting or not, is still up to you.

Good luck.

I think that the length of this thread is to be blamed to some sort of
misunderstanding ( that, or there are people who can't read my
handwriting and my typewriting!! ñ_ñ ).
I think that Bluesea and me are in the same boat; from what I've read
from his/her posts, we both think that different fps write different,
right? Then, we'll get different results. Some of those results will
look more like bp writing and others not.
Ergonomics has a lot to do in the different ways handwriting will
look. Ususlly fps are thicker than most bps, then the gripping section
is also different. Many (if not most) people use a different angle
when using a fp (a google search in this group can prove it). This
different angle will provide some line width variation (depending on
the nib OC), and I just started this post because after many years of
fp use I got some observations (or quoted complaints) from 2 people in
a week, and that got me wondering.
I gave the link because some people asked for a sample of my hw, and I
got no scanner.

Juan

"KCat" wrote in message
m...

"Bluesea" wrote in message

because I thought it must have been a significant factor or there
wouldn't
have been a reason for him to mention it.

well - we're only violently agreeing basically - I'm just doing what I
usually do - equivocating. :P

LOL - "violently agreeing" - I like that .

Also, he stated, "...every fp user writes with a similar angle than the
one
I use...." If that was accurate, Richard's questionnaire wouldn't
provide
three angle options (item #2) as does the Nakaya site:

Absolutely!

http://www.nakaya.org/ekarte.html. My angle is slightly higher than
normal,
about 63 degrees instead of 60, which may or may not account for my not
having to change according to my writing instrument shrug.

And that's all I was reacting to - if you are going to assert that the
angle
doesn't change based on the instrument used, it should be clear to others
that this is a YMMV statement and not an absolute. We get all wrapped
around the axle (self-included) in how we read what is written vs. what is
meant, I just like to throw qualifiers into the mix to make sure people
don't feel that they are doing something "wrong" in using an FP simply
because they use it differently than I do.

Yes, when I read what he posted and compared it to what I do and have seen
others do...I mean...Aw, heck, it's Saturday and I don't want to analyze
this anymore. Whatever works, works. And, if it doesn't work, something's
gotta change somewhere at some point in time for some reason(s) known or
unknown to me.

(Sorry, my brain has left the building.)


--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Juan" wrote in message
om...

Please, read my first post: First, the "complaints" are in quotation
marks, so it is not that those people refuse to read my notes or
anything like that. Second, I said in that post that without seeing my
notes it is impossible to judge, although that wasn't my intention
when I started this thread.
What I wanted to know is exactly what is written in that post: Has
anyone had similar experiences??.

As for the different angles: I said "similar". How many times has
someone new to fps asked in this group about how to use a fp properly?
How many times has he/she been advised to use a different angle?

And that's all

Sorry for the misinterpretation. When I read, "A coworker even suggested me
to use printing (!!!???) Do I have to pretend I'm in kindergarden so as my
handwriting can be
read or what?", it doesn't matter if the word "complaints" has quotes around
it or not because it was, mistakenly or not, clear to me that people had
voiced disatisfaction w/ your handwriting and that you were seeking a
solution.

As for your last question: my answer is, "No."

--
~~Bluesea~~who isn't going to waste any more time on fruitless angles
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Yes, when I write too fast, my n's and u's look the same as do my y's and
z's so that even I can't tell if I'm writing "nouns", "nouus", or "nonns";
or "crazy", "crazz", or "crayy" except by the context. When I reread those
problem letters done poorly, I think, "What the...?!" and squint (though
that never helps) and turn my head to the side like a dog (which doesn't
help, either).

--
~~Bluesea~~
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Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.


"Douglas Wolfe" wrote in message
m...
I see that the handwriting on the website has some of the same
problems that I have been struggling with. The "M", "N" and "U" are
not fully rounded. Notice how the word "Aurora" looks like "Anonia"
or "Airona". The problem is the "n," "m" and "U" are made of angles
and straight lines rather than arches. I recently solved this problem
by slowing down, just for these letters. I practiced making arches
rather than mountains (/\/\/\/\/\) for these letters, a couple hundred
times each. This does not take long. Make no more than 3 or 4
practice arches at a time. Practice arches for "n" and "m" and
reverse arches for "u."

Now I make a conscious effort to slow down on these letters because I
have not yet overcome the bad habits I have developed over the years.
The difference in legibility is remarkable. I am not an expert but I
have studied the work of many experts, and I really beleive that
practicing these shapes will make a big difference for you - or for
the guy on the website.

JDW

"Juan" wrote in message
om...

I think that Bluesea and me are in the same boat; from what I've read
from his/her posts, we both think that different fps write different,
right? Then, we'll get different results. Some of those results will
look more like bp writing and others not.

Yes, definitely. There are so many factors and that's w/o tossing it the
different types of nibs that are available for us to use.

I gave the link because some people asked for a sample of my hw, and I
got no scanner.

Yes, I assumed that was the case and don't see any reason for you to buy one
just for this situation.

Have a good one .


--
~~Bluesea~~
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Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"KCat" wrote in message
m...

yes and no. I used only F and EF nibs for a long time and I had
complaints
(no quotes) about how small my handwriting was. I did not change my
letter
forms overall, they just became very small. I'm also very cheap and doing
this saved paper (and postage) with my long, boring letters. To my eye,
though the letters were small, they were equally legible (relative to
pre-EF
nib use.) Others disagreed. :-)

I used to have a guy working for me who used to leave tiny notes on tiny
slips of paper. When others asked, "How can you read his writing?" I asked,
"Have you ever really looked or only taken a glance in passing?" It was
*always* only in passing because those who actually read what he wrote were
amazed that he wrote perfectly formed letters that were perfectly easy to
read, only extremely small. And, he did all these notes with a regular
wooden #2 pencil that wasn't really sharp.


Ya gotta know by now that if you ask a bunch of self-appointed experts
(KCat
included) a seemingly simple and straightforward question such as "has
this
happened to you" you are going to get a ton of responses ranging from
"nope"
to lengthy dissertations. :-)

Yes, I was attending to his first and second questions and not his third
which turned out to be the question that he wanted us to answer.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.