on handwriting

"Bluesea" wrote in message ...
"KCat" wrote in message
m...
"Bluesea" wrote

As to the angle, you said that you use a different angle when using a fp
than when you use a bp. The angle at which I hold a writing instrument
doesn't change depending on the instrument whether it be a fp, bp, or
pencil. Being nearly vertical, an angle of 85 degrees seems rather
extreme
anyway.

I think it was intended to sound extreme. my angle of attack is definitely
different with FPs than with pencils or bps. I think, in my case, I feel
that at a higher angle, the pressure to apply pencil/bp to paper is easier
accomplished without straining the hand too much. And with a pencil
especially - a lower angle such as that used by most of the FP users I've
seen would be awkward. I define "most" as the angle on Richard Binder's
forms for customizing pens.

You may be correct about his intention, but then I wouldn't know what his
point might have been. By now, I don't really care. No one complains about
my handwriting so I was merely questioning a difference that he brought up
because I thought it must have been a significant factor or there wouldn't
have been a reason for him to mention it.

Also, he stated, "...every fp user writes with a similar angle than the one
I use...." If that was accurate, Richard's questionnaire wouldn't provide
three angle options (item #2) as does the Nakaya site:
http://www.nakaya.org/ekarte.html. My angle is slightly higher than normal,
about 63 degrees instead of 60, which may or may not account for my not
having to change according to my writing instrument shrug.

All the best.

Please, read my first post: First, the "complaints" are in quotation
marks, so it is not that those people refuse to read my notes or
anything like that. Second, I said in that post that without seeing my
notes it is impossible to judge, although that wasn't my intention
when I started this thread.
What I wanted to know is exactly what is written in that post: Has
anyone had similar experiences??.

As for the different angles: I said "similar". How many times has
someone new to fps asked in this group about how to use a fp properly?
How many times has he/she been advised to use a different angle?

And that's all

Juan

Douglas Wolfe wrote:
...some of the same problems that I have been struggling with.
The "M", "N" and "U" are not fully rounded.
I practiced making arches rather than mountains (/\/\/\/\/\)...
Now I make a conscious effort to slow down....

I agree. Whenever I slow down and make my letters more rounded I do
much better.
I used to be that annoying kid you all hate in 10th grade whose
handwriting was put up on the overhead projectors to show how you
"should" write. I don't write like that anymore, but if I really slow
down a lot and concentrate to make my letters VERY rounded and focus on
keeping my slant continuously at the same angle, I can bring back a
slightly sloppy variation of my old handwriting.

Nancy

By the way, I'd still like to know the answer to the question I asked
morten. I'd like to know more about the new method of teaching
left-handed people to write that he mentioned.

Hey David:

You're on to the correct method. It has partly to do with the
positioning of the paper.

Here's a photo. http://www.rkwest.com/left/leftwrite.shtml

Turning the paper 30 degrees right (from top) should induce an
immediate improvement in script by increasing the size of loops.
However, this 30 year old leftie brain compensates by slanting
drastically to the left, so the beneficial efforts of the new paper
angle are soon eliminated.

Here's where the headache inducing re-training starts. If your
writing starts to angle left, then you must slow down, and FORCE your
hand to angle to the right. If you're like me, you'll see a radical
change to your script. It makes my script look instantly like that of
a write hander. BUT, to make this change permanent, you'll need lots
of training. Whereas leftie kids taught with this method get it
quickly, and with permanent benefit.

As for me, I tend to revert back to the old style, and the bad
handwriting, cause this dog is either to old to learn new tricks, or
too lazy to invest days of practice. So, while our generation may be
hooped, so to speak, this simple training method holds promise to
millions of right brained kids.

morten wrote:

You're on to the correct method. It has partly to do with the
positioning of the paper.

Here's a photo. http://www.rkwest.com/left/leftwrite.shtml

Turning the paper 30 degrees right (from top) should induce an
immediate improvement in script by increasing the size of loops.
However, this 30 year old leftie brain compensates by slanting
drastically to the left, so the beneficial efforts of the new paper
angle are soon eliminated.

To my mind this is still better than hooking your hand way around and
smearing the writing, it's faster, too.

Here's where the headache inducing re-training starts. If your
writing starts to angle left, then you must slow down, and FORCE your
hand to angle to the right. If you're like me, you'll see a radical
change to your script. It makes my script look instantly like that of
a write hander. BUT, to make this change permanent, you'll need lots
of training. Whereas leftie kids taught with this method get it
quickly, and with permanent benefit.

I'll try to practice sloping the letters to the right without changing
hand position and see what happens.

As for me, I tend to revert back to the old style, and the bad
handwriting, cause this dog is either to old to learn new tricks, or
too lazy to invest days of practice. So, while our generation may be
hooped, so to speak, this simple training method holds promise to
millions of right brained kids.

I hear handwriting isn't really taught to any kids in many schools these
days. It would be ironic if we wound up with a large number of
specially trained left handers with better handwriting than most right
handed people.


--
David W. Drake

"Curtis L. Russell"

But I find that anything but a fine point does make my handwriting
less legible than a ballpoint, at least in most cases. It will close
some letters a bit more as the main fault.

I agree - someone else said they felt they wrote better with a fine nib. I
do not. I love them, but my writing suffers when I use them.

I do disagree about using a calligraphy pen, unless the purppose is to
use a calligraphy pen at all times.

I don't really know what you mean here. Are you saying that it isn't
possible to learn better handwriting by using the italic style unless you
use a calligraphy pen?

My point, and I still think it valid, is that the same strokes, the same
angle and internal spaces of letters used in the Italic hand, can be used
with a ball-tipped nib and have the effect of neater handwriting. Not that
"calligraphy" can be done this way, but simply establishing better form
overall can. I say this because I have seen that the way I form my letters
with any pen or pencil has been greatly influenced by my calligraphy
practice. I do practice with an edged nib. But eventually that practice
translates to healthy writing habits that can improve your hand regardless
of instrument used. This is actually the entire basis of Getty's and Dubay's
"Write Now" which is one of the most complimented and seemingly successful
method of improving your handwriting. There are others of course.

characters with a ballpoint pen. Just my opinion, but I would practice
with what I'm going to write with later.

well - using your analogy - one should not practice hocky in the off-season
on in-line skates. But I believe that these were originally designed for
that very purpose. to achieve "calligraphic" forms, you are right. heh...
or take it a step further.. remember the "Karate Kid" flicks? The master
made the kid perform certain tasks that seemed on the outset to have nothing
to do with Karate but then later those tasks could be seen in the actual
implementation of the art.

now that I've restated what I meant at least 3 times (happy, shel?) I hope
it makes more sense and you can acknowledge that while it is just my
opinion, it is one built on multiple methods of training in many
disciplines. And may even be useful. :-)

kcat the Verbose

"Bluesea" wrote in message

because I thought it must have been a significant factor or there wouldn't
have been a reason for him to mention it.

well - we're only violently agreeing basically - I'm just doing what I
usually do - equivocating. :P

Also, he stated, "...every fp user writes with a similar angle than the
one
I use...." If that was accurate, Richard's questionnaire wouldn't provide
three angle options (item #2) as does the Nakaya site:

Absolutely!

http://www.nakaya.org/ekarte.html. My angle is slightly higher than
normal,
about 63 degrees instead of 60, which may or may not account for my not
having to change according to my writing instrument shrug.

And that's all I was reacting to - if you are going to assert that the angle
doesn't change based on the instrument used, it should be clear to others
that this is a YMMV statement and not an absolute. We get all wrapped
around the axle (self-included) in how we read what is written vs. what is
meant, I just like to throw qualifiers into the mix to make sure people
don't feel that they are doing something "wrong" in using an FP simply
because they use it differently than I do.

What I wanted to know is exactly what is written in that post: Has
anyone had similar experiences??.

yes and no. I used only F and EF nibs for a long time and I had complaints
(no quotes) about how small my handwriting was. I did not change my letter
forms overall, they just became very small. I'm also very cheap and doing
this saved paper (and postage) with my long, boring letters. To my eye,
though the letters were small, they were equally legible (relative to pre-EF
nib use.) Others disagreed. :-) I use edged nibs a lot and especially fine
and medium stubs which I love. They force me to "open up" my letters and it
might be worth consideration to try this as has been suggested in some form
or fashion in several responses to your post.

Ya gotta know by now that if you ask a bunch of self-appointed experts (KCat
included) a seemingly simple and straightforward question such as "has this
happened to you" you are going to get a ton of responses ranging from "nope"
to lengthy dissertations. :-)

On Fri, 07 May 2004 19:28:28 GMT, "KCat" wrote:

well - using your analogy - one should not practice hocky in the off-season
on in-line skates.

Hardly the same. One can assume that almost anywhere you can write
with a calligraphy pen, you can write with the pen you intend to use.
You use in-line skates for hockey and cross country skiing for bicycle
racing because in the that season it isn't as convenient to skate on
ice skates or ride a bicycle (at least in a manner that trains for
racing).

I still have the opinon that if you want to improve your handwriting
using a particular pen, then practice with that pen. Simply moving
from a medium to a wide nib changes my handwriting legibility.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

KCat wrote:

"Curtis L. Russell"

SNIP

I do disagree about using a calligraphy pen, unless the purppose is to
use a calligraphy pen at all times.


I don't really know what you mean here. Are you saying that it isn't
possible to learn better handwriting by using the italic style unless you
use a calligraphy pen?

My point, and I still think it valid, is that the same strokes, the same
angle and internal spaces of letters used in the Italic hand, can be used
with a ball-tipped nib and have the effect of neater handwriting. Not that
"calligraphy" can be done this way, but simply establishing better form
overall can. I say this because I have seen that the way I form my letters
with any pen or pencil has been greatly influenced by my calligraphy
practice. I do practice with an edged nib. But eventually that practice
translates to healthy writing habits that can improve your hand regardless
of instrument used. This is actually the entire basis of Getty's and Dubay's
"Write Now" which is one of the most complimented and seemingly successful
method of improving your handwriting. There are others of course.


characters with a ballpoint pen. Just my opinion, but I would practice
with what I'm going to write with later.
SNIP
I think I started with the advice to use a straight-cut nib, and
my reason was the one Kcat give. You certainly can use italic
letter forms with any writing instrument, but the hand is
designed for a straight-cut nib and, importantly, that sort of
nib actually guides your handwriting towards the right shapes.
It is *easier* to learn with a calligraphy nib, and then
transfer the learning to whatever you write with normally (stub,
EF, BP or #2 pencil). And as such nibs come cheap (sorry, for US
readers "offering very good value at a more modest price
point"), it gives the enquirer a chance to try out a new nib
style, too.

But I wouldn't want to get into a War of Religion on this -- it
was just advice in a specific situation. And the real enemy of
legibility is failing to make the maximum differentiation
between letters. Hands that look very neat at first glance can
be quite unreadable, because every second letter is a circle, or
a pair of up and down lines.

BTW, on legibility with a given point size: I need a fine point,
but I also find my handwriting gets larger with a broader point,
doubtless as I try to preserve legibility.

Best

Michael

"Curtis L. Russell" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 May 2004 19:28:28 GMT, "KCat" wrote:

well - using your analogy - one should not practice hocky in the
off-season
on in-line skates.

Hardly the same. One can assume that almost anywhere you can write
with a calligraphy pen, you can write with the pen you intend to use.
You use in-line skates for hockey and cross country skiing for bicycle
racing because in the that season it isn't as convenient to skate on
ice skates or ride a bicycle (at least in a manner that trains for
racing).

so you're saying that in-line skates have nothing to do with the same skills
used in ice hockey? I dunno - I'm in TX where we have a very good team but
I doubt many of them are Texans.

either way you're missing my point. That the italic hand can be written
*without* the use of the edged nib and thereby improve one's writing. I am
not suggesting anyone pick up a calligraphy pen to improve their
handwriting. In fact, my first statement was just the opposite - that it
isn't necessary to do so. Therefore - yes, using the same pen you intend to
use in all other situations (say you have only one writing instrument) would
be used in the same *manner* as one would use an edged nib. you are
training your hand, not the pen.

I still have the opinon that if you want to improve your handwriting
using a particular pen, then practice with that pen. Simply moving
from a medium to a wide nib changes my handwriting legibility.

I would ask - have you ever practiced Calligraphy? And if not, then you
might read Mr. Pickering's approach to practical italic handwriting as well
as look into the Getty/Dubay book. otherwise, I'm fine with agreeing to
disagree. And I'll continue to disagree for much longer than the 25 years
I've been using edged pens that have influenced my handwriting in a positive
way. :-)

to each his own and all that rot.
k