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PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 17th 10, 12:05 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
reality
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 349
Default PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff

On Jan 16, 10:53*am, oly wrote:
On Jan 16, 12:35*pm, Reality wrote:





On Jan 16, 6:56*am, oly wrote:


On Jan 16, 8:29*am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:


"Reality" wrote in message


...
On Jan 15, 8:10 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:


"Reality" wrote in message


...


What is the deal with this nonsense?


When I submit a coin to PCGS, I want to know if it is genuine, the
grade, and if it is original.


IMO if you are paying the supposed leading expert graders in the
industry a $30 grading fee plus shipping both ways, then their
"Genuine - Questionable Color" B.S is not an option. I'm paying them
to tell me one way or the other.


The color/toning is either ORIGINAL or NOT.


If they can't tell the difference, then what is their opinion worth?
IMO the grading fee should be refunded if their "experts" can't
discern the difference. It's a total ripoff otherwise.


Tell 'em we said to give you your money back. It's much less stressful to
buy coins already graded by PCGS (and paid for by someone else) than to
send
them your own coins and hold your breath waiting.


The point is, why should *anyone* get ripped off in that manner?
===========


If you do some homework first, you're less likely to get "ripped off".
Sending a coin to a TPG like PCGS can be a crapshoot unless you're someone
who's experienced with that sort of thing. *Before spending that money maybe
it would have saved any disappointment if you'd showed the coin first to a
couple reputable dealers who might have cautioned you about your coin's
questionable color and how PCGS might respond to it. *You didn't say if you
did submit the coin through a dealer or if you're a "member". *If it was
through a dealer, maybe you've got a gripe with that dealer for not advising
you as to what PCGS might conclude.


No one should get ripped off in that manner, and there are many ways to
minimize the chance.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Bruce, your first advice was very adequate (i.e., buy a decent piece,
sightseen, already slabbed); that's not the game the OP wants to play..


oly


I was going to put the coin in an auction raw, and the advice given to
me was to have it slobbed because that's how most people want to buy
them these days. *I'm not playing any games, and I don't appreciate
your silly insinuations.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Of course you're playing a game. *And you're not an insider, which is
why you can't win.


"Insider". What a dumbass. lol

I sent it in through a dealer who is presumably an "insider".


And to boot, you'll have to misrepresent the coin for the rest of the
sales process. *Which, obviously you are more than willing to do.

oly


KOoK!
Ads
  #12  
Old January 17th 10, 02:51 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Bruce Remick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,391
Default PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff


"Reality" wrote in message
...
On Jan 16, 6:29 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Reality" wrote in message

...
On Jan 15, 8:10 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:





"Reality" wrote in message


...


What is the deal with this nonsense?


When I submit a coin to PCGS, I want to know if it is genuine, the
grade, and if it is original.


IMO if you are paying the supposed leading expert graders in the
industry a $30 grading fee plus shipping both ways, then their
"Genuine - Questionable Color" B.S is not an option. I'm paying them
to tell me one way or the other.


The color/toning is either ORIGINAL or NOT.


If they can't tell the difference, then what is their opinion worth?
IMO the grading fee should be refunded if their "experts" can't
discern the difference. It's a total ripoff otherwise.


Tell 'em we said to give you your money back. It's much less stressful
to
buy coins already graded by PCGS (and paid for by someone else) than to
send
them your own coins and hold your breath waiting.


The point is, why should *anyone* get ripped off in that manner?
===========

If you do some homework first, you're less likely to get "ripped off".
Sending a coin to a TPG like PCGS can be a crapshoot unless you're someone
who's experienced with that sort of thing. Before spending that money
maybe
it would have saved any disappointment if you'd showed the coin first to a
couple reputable dealers who might have cautioned you about your coin's
questionable color and how PCGS might respond to it. You didn't say if you
did submit the coin through a dealer or if you're a "member". If it was
through a dealer, maybe you've got a gripe with that dealer for not
advising
you as to what PCGS might conclude.

No one should get ripped off in that manner, and there are many ways to
minimize the chance.


I sent it in through a very experienced dealer. The coin was an 1882-
CC PL Morgan Dollar with rainbow toning. I bought the coin from
another reputable dealer over 20 years ago and it has been in my safe
deposit box since. No one at the shop had any problems with it and
neither did I.

My question is why didn't PCGS just say that their opinion was that
the coin was recolored? (They would be wrong BTW.)
------------

Unless you owned the coin since 1882, how do you know how or when it
acquired its toning? PCGS apparently cited "questionable coloring", and I
would probably be as ****ed as you were to have spent all that dough
expecting it to be slabbed. I doubt they felt it was "recolored" since that
would imply it once had coloring which was removed and reapplied
artificially later. But then who knows?

There have been many interesting discussions here about artificial toning--
especially the definition and the difference from "natural toning". But it
all comes down to what the professional graders think with a particular coin
in hand, since they're the ones who decide whether the coin rates a slab or
not. Maybe the best advice would be to stay away from excessively toned
coins, unless you like them raw or they're already slabbed.





  #13  
Old January 17th 10, 04:08 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
reality
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 349
Default PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff

On Jan 16, 5:51*pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Reality" wrote in message

...
On Jan 16, 6:29 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:





"Reality" wrote in message


...
On Jan 15, 8:10 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:


"Reality" wrote in message


....


What is the deal with this nonsense?


When I submit a coin to PCGS, I want to know if it is genuine, the
grade, and if it is original.


IMO if you are paying the supposed leading expert graders in the
industry a $30 grading fee plus shipping both ways, then their
"Genuine - Questionable Color" B.S is not an option. I'm paying them
to tell me one way or the other.


The color/toning is either ORIGINAL or NOT.


If they can't tell the difference, then what is their opinion worth?
IMO the grading fee should be refunded if their "experts" can't
discern the difference. It's a total ripoff otherwise.


Tell 'em we said to give you your money back. It's much less stressful
to
buy coins already graded by PCGS (and paid for by someone else) than to
send
them your own coins and hold your breath waiting.


The point is, why should *anyone* get ripped off in that manner?
===========


If you do some homework first, you're less likely to get "ripped off".
Sending a coin to a TPG like PCGS can be a crapshoot unless you're someone
who's experienced with that sort of thing. Before spending that money
maybe
it would have saved any disappointment if you'd showed the coin first to a
couple reputable dealers who might have cautioned you about your coin's
questionable color and how PCGS might respond to it. You didn't say if you
did submit the coin through a dealer or if you're a "member". If it was
through a dealer, maybe you've got a gripe with that dealer for not
advising
you as to what PCGS might conclude.


No one should get ripped off in that manner, and there are many ways to
minimize the chance.


I sent it in through a very experienced dealer. *The coin was an 1882-
CC PL Morgan Dollar with rainbow toning. *I bought the coin from
another reputable dealer over 20 years ago and it has been in my safe
deposit box since. *No one at the shop had any problems with it and
neither did I.

My question is why didn't PCGS just say that their opinion was that
the coin was recolored? *(They would be wrong BTW.)
------------

Unless you owned the coin since 1882, how do you know how or when it
acquired its toning? *PCGS apparently cited "questionable coloring", and I
would probably be as ****ed as you were to have spent all that dough
expecting it to be slabbed. *I doubt they felt it was "recolored" since that
would imply it once had coloring which was removed and reapplied
artificially later. *But then who knows?


I would say people have been doctoring coins for as long as there has
been a demand for the specific type of effect being created.

When I bought this particular coin in the mid 80s, there were more raw
than slabbed coins being offered at every shop and show that I
attended. I have seen hundreds of toned coins, and never had any
doubts about this one being original, as most artificially toned coins
that I saw during the 80s were either "baked potatoes" or had been
exposed to some type of sulfer source. BTW, this one hasn't changed
as far as I can tell over the time I've owned it, unlike what most
doctored coins tend to do.


There have been many interesting discussions here about artificial toning-- *
especially the definition and the difference from "natural toning". *But it
all comes down to what the professional graders think with a particular coin
in hand, since they're the ones who decide whether the coin rates a slab or
not. *Maybe the best advice would be to stay away from excessively toned
coins, unless you like them raw or they're already slabbed.


I agree with you, but I guess I'm just commenting on a frustrating
attempt to slab a coin I know well (in this case, merely to put in an
auction). Sadly though, my $30+ netted nothing more than a generic
"questionable" assessment rather than a specific decision.

I mean, isn't that why we submit coins? So that the so-called experts
can come down on one side of an issue or the other with a given coin?
  #14  
Old January 17th 10, 05:25 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
oly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,111
Default PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff

On Jan 16, 5:05*pm, Reality wrote:
On Jan 16, 10:53*am, oly wrote:





On Jan 16, 12:35*pm, Reality wrote:


On Jan 16, 6:56*am, oly wrote:


On Jan 16, 8:29*am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:


"Reality" wrote in message


...
On Jan 15, 8:10 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:


"Reality" wrote in message


...


What is the deal with this nonsense?


When I submit a coin to PCGS, I want to know if it is genuine, the
grade, and if it is original.


IMO if you are paying the supposed leading expert graders in the
industry a $30 grading fee plus shipping both ways, then their
"Genuine - Questionable Color" B.S is not an option. I'm paying them
to tell me one way or the other.


The color/toning is either ORIGINAL or NOT.


If they can't tell the difference, then what is their opinion worth?
IMO the grading fee should be refunded if their "experts" can't
discern the difference. It's a total ripoff otherwise.


Tell 'em we said to give you your money back. It's much less stressful to
buy coins already graded by PCGS (and paid for by someone else) than to
send
them your own coins and hold your breath waiting.


The point is, why should *anyone* get ripped off in that manner?
===========


If you do some homework first, you're less likely to get "ripped off".
Sending a coin to a TPG like PCGS can be a crapshoot unless you're someone
who's experienced with that sort of thing. *Before spending that money maybe
it would have saved any disappointment if you'd showed the coin first to a
couple reputable dealers who might have cautioned you about your coin's
questionable color and how PCGS might respond to it. *You didn't say if you
did submit the coin through a dealer or if you're a "member". *If it was
through a dealer, maybe you've got a gripe with that dealer for not advising
you as to what PCGS might conclude.


No one should get ripped off in that manner, and there are many ways to
minimize the chance.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Bruce, your first advice was very adequate (i.e., buy a decent piece,
sightseen, already slabbed); that's not the game the OP wants to play.


oly


I was going to put the coin in an auction raw, and the advice given to
me was to have it slobbed because that's how most people want to buy
them these days. *I'm not playing any games, and I don't appreciate
your silly insinuations.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Of course you're playing a game. *And you're not an insider, which is
why you can't win.


"Insider". *What a dumbass. *lol

I sent it in through a dealer who is presumably an "insider".



And to boot, you'll have to misrepresent the coin for the rest of the
sales process. *Which, obviously you are more than willing to do.


oly


KOoK!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Aw, so we are crying over $30. Boo-hoo. One automatically loses $30
(usually more) anytime they take the day off and go to a coin show.
That's simply the cost of getting one's jollies.

The dealer likely knew that the coin was very very questionable. Up
close and personal, the dealer also knows that you are an insane
greedy so-and-so. So he just decided to let PCGS give you the bad
news.

And now you will still sell it, for what the market will bear. And
you will explain your screw-job away by saying (to yourself) that you
know so much more than the TPGs. This "screw your buddy" mentality is
why the U.S. numismatic "industry" is on the ropes - only extreme
grayhairs, the unemployable, dopes and morons still going through the
motions...

oly
  #15  
Old January 17th 10, 08:44 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
reality
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 349
Default PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff

On Jan 16, 7:26*pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
--------

That's always been on the want list of many submitters. *For the $30 fee,
they would at least like their coin to be slabbed, regardless of whether
it's noted as damaged, cleaned, artificially colored (isn't all coloring
un-natural in theory?), etc. *I'm surprised you didn't get your dollar back
in a slab marked "Genuine". *I thought that was PCGS's latest policy.


It was slabbed Genuine with the questionable disclaimer. Which IMO is
just a bodybag made of hard plastic.
  #16  
Old January 17th 10, 09:10 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Nick Knight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 496
Default PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff

In , on
01/17/2010
at 11:41 AM, Reality said:

You're really quite stupid, aren't you?


Well, I can't really comment on this, specifically. But I do know he's rude
and crude enough, while offering little-to-no coin-specific value to any
discussion, to warrant a permanent place in my killfile. But I'm now
seeing too much of him.

I'll kill this thread, although it WAS mildly interesting to me. I thought
I'd offer my own view of his debating "style" hoping to end what otherwise
will be an endless iteration. Some people are always right in their own
minds and will always be stuck on this.

I love the killfile feature. I recently added 2 of the most verbose local
posters to it, and short of this thread now, things seem to be valuable and
of mostly-coin content. I've found that adding to it aggressively really
works.

Nick
  #17  
Old January 18th 10, 04:54 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff

Reality wrote:
What is the deal with this nonsense?

When I submit a coin to PCGS, I want to know if it is genuine, the
grade, and if it is original.

IMO if you are paying the supposed leading expert graders in the
industry a $30 grading fee plus shipping both ways, then their
"Genuine - Questionable Color" B.S is not an option. I'm paying them
to tell me one way or the other.

The color/toning is either ORIGINAL or NOT.

If they can't tell the difference, then what is their opinion worth?
IMO the grading fee should be refunded if their "experts" can't
discern the difference. It's a total ripoff otherwise.


PCGS assesses coins in terms of how they think the market will view them.
If they feel the market will be accepting, they will grade the coin. If
they feel the market will be hesitant or unaccepting, they will slab the
coin as genuine and then tell you why they made the judgment call (IMHO a
much more humane and instructive policy than their previous bodybag event).
In all cases they prejudge the anticipated reaction to your coin of a market
that is partially known and partially unknown, based upon their past
experience, which is definitely broader than mine and, I would guess,
broader than yours. It is scientific only to a point, then the real
emotions, fears, and fickle, undefinable "feelings" that lurk in the market
take over, whence the "questionable" designator. My conclusion and advice,
after sending several coins to PCGS and seeing countless others in bodybags,
graded slabs, and "genuine" slabs: "It's a crapshoot. Don't gamble any
more money than you can afford to lose." From what I have seen, PCGS
arrives at that conclusion and follows that advice to the letter.

PCGS had a display at their table at CICF 2009 which featured two cases full
of coins they had to buy back for one reason or another after they had put
them in graded slabs. I am certain that some of those buybacks cost them a
bundle. Perhaps not a significant fraction of their bottom line,
nevertheless they represented a lesson in caution in putting their trademark
on their product.

Your screen name is Reality, and that's the reality, Reality. 8)

James the Ombudsman


  #18  
Old January 18th 10, 04:58 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff

Bruce Remick wrote:
"Reality" wrote in message
...
What is the deal with this nonsense?

When I submit a coin to PCGS, I want to know if it is genuine, the
grade, and if it is original.

IMO if you are paying the supposed leading expert graders in the
industry a $30 grading fee plus shipping both ways, then their
"Genuine - Questionable Color" B.S is not an option. I'm paying them
to tell me one way or the other.

The color/toning is either ORIGINAL or NOT.

If they can't tell the difference, then what is their opinion worth?
IMO the grading fee should be refunded if their "experts" can't
discern the difference. It's a total ripoff otherwise.


Tell 'em we said to give you your money back. It's much less
stressful to buy coins already graded by PCGS (and paid for by
someone else) than to send them your own coins and hold your breath
waiting.


Excellent observation, one that I have taken to my cynical, collecting
heart.

James the Secondary Slabber


  #19  
Old January 18th 10, 05:01 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff

Nick Knight wrote:
In
,
on 01/17/2010 at 11:41 AM, Reality said:

You're really quite stupid, aren't you?


Well, I can't really comment on this, specifically. But I do know
he's rude and crude enough, while offering little-to-no coin-specific
value to any discussion, to warrant a permanent place in my
killfile. But I'm now seeing too much of him.

I'll kill this thread, although it WAS mildly interesting to me. I
thought I'd offer my own view of his debating "style" hoping to end
what otherwise will be an endless iteration. Some people are always
right in their own minds and will always be stuck on this.

I love the killfile feature. I recently added 2 of the most verbose
local posters to it, and short of this thread now, things seem to be
valuable and of mostly-coin content. I've found that adding to it
aggressively really works.


Aw, come on, Nick, I'm not verbose, I'm just pleasingly plump.

James the Circumferentially Gifted


  #20  
Old January 18th 10, 05:07 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff

oly wrote:
On Jan 16, 12:35 pm, Reality wrote:
On Jan 16, 6:56 am, oly wrote:





On Jan 16, 8:29 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:


"Reality" wrote in message


...
On Jan 15, 8:10 pm, "Bruce Remick" wrote:


"Reality" wrote in message


...


What is the deal with this nonsense?


When I submit a coin to PCGS, I want to know if it is genuine,
the grade, and if it is original.


IMO if you are paying the supposed leading expert graders in the
industry a $30 grading fee plus shipping both ways, then their
"Genuine - Questionable Color" B.S is not an option. I'm paying
them to tell me one way or the other.


The color/toning is either ORIGINAL or NOT.


If they can't tell the difference, then what is their opinion
worth? IMO the grading fee should be refunded if their "experts"
can't discern the difference. It's a total ripoff otherwise.


Tell 'em we said to give you your money back. It's much less
stressful to buy coins already graded by PCGS (and paid for by
someone else) than to send
them your own coins and hold your breath waiting.


The point is, why should *anyone* get ripped off in that manner?
===========


If you do some homework first, you're less likely to get "ripped
off". Sending a coin to a TPG like PCGS can be a crapshoot unless
you're someone who's experienced with that sort of thing. Before
spending that money maybe it would have saved any disappointment
if you'd showed the coin first to a couple reputable dealers who
might have cautioned you about your coin's questionable color and
how PCGS might respond to it. You didn't say if you did submit the
coin through a dealer or if you're a "member". If it was through a
dealer, maybe you've got a gripe with that dealer for not advising
you as to what PCGS might conclude.


No one should get ripped off in that manner, and there are many
ways to minimize the chance.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Bruce, your first advice was very adequate (i.e., buy a decent
piece, sightseen, already slabbed); that's not the game the OP
wants to play.


oly


I was going to put the coin in an auction raw, and the advice given
to me was to have it slobbed because that's how most people want to
buy them these days. I'm not playing any games, and I don't
appreciate your silly insinuations.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Of course you're playing a game. And you're not an insider, which is
why you can't win.


Maybe when we boil numismatics down to its component salts, one of them is
indeed a game. And, like all games, it will be taken more or less
seriously, according to the temperament of the player. I'd say that
numismatics has room for the entire spectrum of gamers.

And to boot, you'll have to misrepresent the coin for the rest of the
sales process. Which, obviously you are more than willing to do.


The most common misrepresentation I have seen is trying to get XF money for
a VF coin that somehow got into an XF slab.

James the Overachiever


 




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