How many 'collect' non-functioning pens?

I always find this an interesting discussion and a good reminder to me
that pen collecting has changed a lot over the years and the term pen
collector seems to be ever evolving. About 10 years or so ago when
people first started talking pens online, the majority were collectors -
we gathered pens, function was not a concern, in fact most vintage pens
did not work. The concern was the historical aspect of the pens;
researching, identifying - it made no matter whether they worked and in
fact many times the guts are stripped out in order not to risk potential
damage. I still tell people that if they're going to collect a pen and
never use it to remove the sac or diaphragm and eliminate much of the
risk of altering condition. I don't think that pen collecting totally
relates to value of the pen, ie: serious collectors don't necessarily
collect just expensive pens. I have some of those, but some of my
favorites are unsual examples that just aren't easily found - weird
colors, prototypes, stuff like that - many of these would hold
relatively low value to another collector and the market in general
because they aren't always well documented or well known. Not so long
ago, it was a novel idea to actually use these vintage pens! When there
were questions about condition, that didn't involve whther it worked or
not! So, I guess I'm a serious pen collector in this respect because I
do collect pens that I would never dream of writing with.

On most of the online pen forums now, talk focuses around new pens and
restored to writability vintage pens. I collect those, too. But the
pens I buy to write with are just that - they aren't ones that I
consider part of my pen collection. Some are new, some are old, but the
sole reason I buy them is becaue I like the way they write. So, I have
a collection of historical pens and I have another collection of pens I
like to write with. Easy enough to do both.

I think there are an awful lot of people in our pen community who cross
over into collecting from a historical standpoint and collecting pens to
use on an everyday basis. Nothing wrong with doing either, you just
have to remember who you're talking to and what they're talking about
when they say they are a "pen collector", a term that has come to have
many meanings.

Just some food for thought ... Sam

Thanks Sam for the post. It's nice to hear from you on specifically on a
collecting topic. I started out writing with FPs, and still buy my pens with
the intent of getting them all into the writable state. In vintage pens, I
accumulate Watermen and Onotos. The 'men all are writers, and I''m less
emotionally attached. I'm much more willing to buy an Onoto with little or no
likliehood of getting it functional just to put in a row with its mates.

As far as serious/non-serious (frivolous?) collectors, I have no illusions of
ever having a historically significant collection. But it sure SEEMS serious
when I get sniped at the last second!
gary

Curtis L. Russell wrote:

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:02:13 -0400, "BL"
wrote:

"Serious" collectors are folks for whom pens are
more than utilitarian objects... they're important
bits of history.

I'd look pretty serious if I spent tens of
thousands on a pen. My wife would look downright
grim.

That's the price of a tandem and two singles. Maybe
even some left over for water bottles...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Sounds like you're a serious rider. As Sam pointed out, the amount
of money one drops on pens isn't necessarily the defining characteristic
of a "serious" collector. One could be a "serious" collector of economy
or no-name pens (perhaps in an attempt to trace their origins or
whatever) and spend relatively little money. Alternatively, someone with
more money than sense could drop a ton of money on a mint-in-box Parker
Duofold in Moderne Black and Pearl with perfect color, have a sac put in
it, and use it, and having spent all that money wouldn't make that
person a serious collector. Serious isn't about money, it's about one's
approach to collecting. No one is making a value judgment about which
approach is better. The better approach is the one that makes you
happy. --- Bernadette

PGBarto wrote:

As far as serious/non-serious (frivolous?)
^^^^^^^^^
casual sounds better

B

"PENDEMONIUM" wrote in message
...
I always find this an interesting discussion and a good reminder to me
that pen collecting has changed a lot over the years and the term pen
collector seems to be ever evolving. snip
I think there are an awful lot of people in our pen community who cross
over into collecting from a historical standpoint and collecting pens to
use on an everyday basis. Nothing wrong with doing either, you just
have to remember who you're talking to and what they're talking about
when they say they are a "pen collector", a term that has come to have
many meanings.

Just some food for thought ... Sam

Great explanation of the current reality of "collecting". I find myself
still more in the accumulator phase. I've begun to focus a bit, but still
enjoy understanding something new and different about a pen line. I'm above
all else, a user of the pens, so I like them to be restorable. Next, I'm
cheap. While I've spent more than a hundred dollars on a vintage pen, I
would rather not. I guess this takes me out of the Serious Historical
Collector category and that's fine by me. Spending thousands of dollars for
a few pens somehow doesn't square with my view of what's important in the
world. I'm not sure how I rationalize accumulating over a hundred pens, but
that's another story.

My biggest pen thrill is finding pens in the wild, at junk stores, estate
auctions, etc., that are sumgai's and that I can restore to workable
condition and enjoy using on a daily basis. I will admit, the real
treasures are getting few and far between, but it happens. This time last
year I picked up a Waterman 452 in great condition, except for the missing
clip, grey Skyline, Eversharp 5th ave, both in wonderful condition, a Lucy
Curve ring top, bchr in super condition, except missing the nib, a green
striped Vacumatic, 1936 three band, lockdown filler double jewel, the
smaller size, missing the blind cap tassie and jewel, and a Parker 21. All
were in two boxes of other junk that I ended up paying a total of $5.00 on
the bids, then sold all but the pens in one box to the other bidder for
$2.00 for a net of three bucks. Now I'll tell you, that's a thrill. I'm
still hunting for some of the parts and deciding what to do about the 452
clip. But, all the pens are working and the 452 is a wonderful writing pen,
my first real flex nib. The vac has a nice semi-flex two tone nib and it
functions very well and is a very pretty pen. So much so that I'm found
myself hunting cheap vacs on ebay - not too many to be had, at least
cheaply! Anyway, the thrill of the hunt and the restoration is what I enjoy
most. I'll leave the "serious" collecting to others and perhaps I'll find
some pens to sell to them!

One thing about it, there's room for all of us in this obsession.

kelly g.

"BL" wrote in message
...
KCat wrote:

I would take issue with the term "serious."

To each his/her own. Makes sense they wouldn't
post to such lowly places as this. How can you
really discuss and evaluate a pen that you've never
seen? I suppose it's akin to evaluating a famous
painting in a book - it seems very limiting.

Why are you guys taking what QH said so personally? It's not personal,
really.

uh.. taking it "seriously"? :-) no pun intended, right? I'm not taking it
seriously. I'm not offended or anything. I'm giving my opinion. QH merely
offered information. His words seemed to imply that "serious" collectors
are somehow above the rest of us "users." That is what people are
responding to. But I reserve the right to express my opinion as well. Why
are you jumping on me for that? I said, to each their own. That means
"hey, you do what you want and it don't make no nevermind to me." Then I
said I don't understand it nor how one can fully evaluate a pen without
holding it in the hand and using it. I still think that. There's truth in
there - even if it is my truth. It has nothing to do with motivations or
anything else. It has nothing to do with finding fault with collectors who
don't ever take a pen out of a box. It's simply a matter of differing
opinion.

etc., available to the rest of us). Don't assume these people are
elitists...
term "serious" is generally well understood and not considered
elitist. --- Bern

well, obviously that's your opinion and you're welcome to it but the fact
that people reacted says you are at least partly incorrect. Some people
*do* consider it elitist.

I have every hope that most of my pens will be passed on and that they will
be appreciated both for their history and their quality. The fact that I
use them doesn't make them of any lesser personal value - either to me or to
my offspring. And for me in fact, the fact that they are used adds to their
history. I have a pen that belonged to my GM and she used it. And it
delights me to think that I am holding the same pen that she doodled with
while on the phone or used to write little letters to my mom when they were
separated by 1000s of miles.

give me some credit for having the ability to see different views and have
my own opinion. There is nothing "wrong" in either view of pen
collecting/use. Nor did I ever say there was.

Great explanation of the current reality of "collecting". I find myself
still more in the accumulator phase.

I am not a collector. I use the term only because there is no board for
alt.fountainpens.users. I'm not even an accumulator. I have 18 pens and
that's where I want it to stay. But I can certainly appreciate the desire
to have more.

I've begun to focus a bit, but still
enjoy understanding something new and different about a pen line. I'm
above
all else, a user of the pens, so I like them to be restorable. Next, I'm
cheap.

heh.. yeah. that is partly why I have 18 pens (many of which were gifts or
very low discounts) and not 100.

While I've spent more than a hundred dollars on a vintage pen, I
would rather not. I guess this takes me out of the Serious Historical
Collector category and that's fine by me. Spending thousands of dollars
for
a few pens somehow doesn't square with my view of what's important in the
world. I'm not sure how I rationalize accumulating over a hundred pens,
but
that's another story.

well... that's one of the traits of a hobby/obsession isn't it? I can
rationalize the pens I have but my husband will still just shake his head
and call it "cat logic." OTOH, he can't rationalize the number of PC parts
we had accumulated that were not being used. Or the fact that he refuses to
give up his dial Princess Phone from childhood.

My biggest pen thrill is finding pens in the wild, at junk stores, estate
auctions, etc.,

I sometimes envy folks who can do that. My daughter found a snorkel for $6
and passed it on to me as a gift. The restoration was interesting to say the
least. But it is a fully functional and cool little pen. I don't use it a
lot but I'm loathe to get rid of it. OTOH, I'm also glad that this
particular bug hasn't bitten too hard or I might very well be at odds with
my hubby and my bank. :-) Fortunately, the good antique stores and auctions
are too far away.

One thing about it, there's room for all of us in this obsession.

kelly g.

you bet. I appreciated Sam's response and it gave me insight beyond just
the "for the sake of history" rationale for buying non-functional pens.

KCat wrote in message:
blandolf wrote:
Why are you guys taking what QH said so
personally? It's not personal, really.

uh.. taking it "seriously"? :-) no pun intended,
right? I'm not taking it seriously. I'm not
offended or anything. I'm giving my opinion. QH
merely offered information. His words seemed to
imply that "serious" collectors are somehow above
the rest of us "users." That is what people are
responding to. But I reserve the right to express
my opinion as well. Why are you jumping on me for
that?

First, I was not jumping on you. That's your interpretation of what I
posted. My intention was to provide an alternative, less disparaging
(for all concerned), interpretation of the word "serious." Second, if
you wish to interpret the term "serious collectors" as meaning
"collectors who think they're somehow above the rest of us users" that's
fine; however, I do think that qualifies as taking it personally. I also
think it's a misinterpretation of
the term, and I think most collectors... the serious ones and the less
serious ones, would agree.

... Then I said I don't understand it nor how one
can fully evaluate a pen without holding it in the
hand and using it. I still think that.

Do you want an answer to your question or was it a rhetorical one?

There's truth in there - even if it is my truth.

Sounds like you have your mind made up and you really don't want to
learn from others whose interests in collecting differ from your own.
This may be a huge misinterpretation of what you're saying, and, if so,
I apologize. This medium isn't the best one in which to connect with
other on a more personal basis.

snip

well, obviously that's your opinion and you're
welcome to it but the fact that people reacted says
you are at least partly incorrect. Some people
*do* consider it elitist.

You really don't want to engage in a discussion about epistemology do
you? Look, I do not take issue with whether there are people who
consider the term elitist. I also maintain that it is an unnecessarily
pejorative and incorrect interpretation of the term. If you approach a
dealer at a show (almost any dealer will do) and ask him/her if Pete
Kirby is a serious collector of Conklins, he or she will, in a very
matter-of-fact way, respond in the affirmative. I can give you the names
of serious Wahl collectors (e.g., Cliff Harrington), serious MB
collectors (e.g., Axel Huebener), serious Pelikan collectors (e.g., our
own Paul Gloeggler), serious 51 collectors (e.g., Ernesto Soler),
serious Rexall collectors (e.g., Charlie Harles) and on and on. These
people are really nice people. They love their pens, and as far as I
know, don't poo-poo anyone's collecting interests.

I have every hope that most of my pens will be
passed on and that they will be appreciated both
for their history and their quality. The fact
that I use them doesn't make them of any lesser
personal value - either to me or to my offspring.
And for me in fact, the fact that they are used
adds to their history. I have a pen that belonged
to my GM and she used it. And it delights me to
think that I am holding the same pen that she
doodled with while on the phone or used to write
little letters to my mom when they were
separated by 1000s of miles.

This all sounds wonderful. No one was ever questioning how much you
enjoy the hobby or how much your pens mean to you. "Serious" as in
"serious collector" has nothing to do with those things.

give me some credit for having the ability to see
different views and have my own opinion.

And give me some credit for at least attempting to give folks a less
negative way of interpreting the term "serious collector."

There is nothing "wrong" in either view of pen
collecting/use. Nor did I ever say there was.

I believe we agree on this.

Regards,
Bernadette

"BL" wrote in message
...
... Then I said I don't understand it nor how one
can fully evaluate a pen without holding it in the
hand and using it. I still think that.

Do you want an answer to your question or was it a rhetorical one?

to quote my daughter hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... there is no question mark
there. It isn't a question. It is a statement. It's like asking me to
fully understand the male mind when I am female and quite incapable of doing
so. I don't understand the mind of the mint collector regardless of the
many discussions I've seen about the topic. It doesn't mean I disparage it
anymore than I would disparage the male of our species (I happen to think
they're pretty cool.)

I apologize. This medium isn't the best one in which to connect with
other on a more personal basis.

yup. it's a misinterpretation. again. it is my "truth", my opinion, that
for me the best use of a pen is well... use. that is *for me* and I don't
begrudge anyone else taking a different approach. You asked why people were
taking it so seriously, I explained why. that some took the wording as
divisive. why should it be anymore complex than that? (not rhetorical and
does have a question mark?)

well, obviously that's your opinion and you're
welcome to it but the fact that people reacted says
you are at least partly incorrect. Some people
*do* consider it elitist.

You really don't want to engage in a discussion about epistemology do
you?

hell.. i don't even know what that means. Let's talk practically. someone
said something. a couple of people took offense. it doesn't matter whether
they should have or shouldn't. The fact that they did *proves* IMO that the
word has connotations. if it didn't, rightly or wrongly, we wouldn't be
having this discussion.

whatever - i gotta eat some lunch - low blood sugar and rapid fire debates
do not mix.

KCat - a serious user. ;-)

BL wrote:

PGBarto wrote:


As far as serious/non-serious (frivolous?)

^^^^^^^^^
casual sounds better

B



How about "high stakes?"

Even a low stakes collector can be very serious about what he does and
be as completely dedicated to collecting as the high stakes collectors,
but the high-stakes collectors are simply playing at a different
monetary level.

CH