dip pens

"MatthewK" wrote in message
...
On 2008-06-06, Bluesea wrote:

"The Drunken Lord" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 05:11:23 +0000, MatthewK


I tried a dip pen several years ago and stuck it in a drawer thinking
there's a technique I need to learn before it'll be enjoyable for me. I
still haven't looked into it. Is there a technique for using dip pens?
All I
did was dip the nib into the ink at varying depths, sometimes touching
the
point to the bottle to get rid of the excess.

So far I've noticed that I need an extra-light hand with the
fine and square tipped nibs. I was a little put off by the
difference at first. Out of the two inks I used (bp black and
platinum red) the watery platinum red worked best.


Maybe what I need is a reservoir pen.

From:

http://www.penandinkability.co.uk/ni...loadingink.htm

Loading the Nib with Ink
If you are using a nib and holder without a reservoir then you
have a choice, of either dipping the nib into the bottled ink
in the normal way. Or using a small brush, pick up some ink
with it and introduce it to the nib. This way you have control
over the amount of ink given to the nib and you don.t have the
nib over full with ink and inclined to drip.

If you are using a pen nib with a reservoir and a bottle of ink
with a dropper cap, then you can successfully use this to
introduce ink to the nib. Just position the business end of the
dropper between the nib and reservoir, apply a small amount of
pressure to the bulb of the dropper and watch the flow of ink
into the reservoir.
If you are not using a dropper bottle then use a brush loaded
with ink as described above, using the bristles to introduce
the ink into the space between the reservoir and nib.

The brush and dropper techniques are way too much bother for my temperament.
Maybe dipping is too, but I'm willing to have another go at it.

Always test the flow of the ink from the nib on a spare piece
of paper before attempting to write with it. Trying the ink
flow first gives you the confidence to know the ink will flow
when you start to write, also any excess ink will be used up
and therefore not drip and spoil your work.

It.s important that the nib has been washed with soap and water
then dried prior to use, otherwise the ink may not cling to the
nib. In effect the ink will slide off the nib like water off a
ducks back!

I read somewhere or was told by the store to boil the nib in water first.
Washing is a lot simpler and faster.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Aaron Hsu" wrote in message
...
Bluesea wrote:

Is there a technique for using dip pens? All I
did was dip the nib into the ink at varying depths, sometimes touching
the
point to the bottle to get rid of the excess.

It really depends on the nib that you have. Some others here have
described the reservoir nibs and the like, but I use a simple nib with
no reservoir and I don't have any troubles with it. It's an extra
flexible steel dip (extra flexible compared to modern fountain pen nibs)
that is considered a "medium."

I take the technique for writing with them from a Spencerian Penmanship
book [1] as follows:

"The position for writing should be a convenient one, allowing the easy
action of the right arm and hand. In sitting at a desk or table there is
little choice between [different angles and positions] ... As the free
use of the hand mainly depends on the manner of holding the pen, the
correct method only should be learned, and perservered in until it
becomes habitual and easy....

"Take the pen between the first and second fingers and the thumb,
observing, 1st, that it crosses the second finger on the corner of the
nail; 2d, that it crosses the fore finger forward of the knuckle;

I don't understand "knuckle." Which one? I've got it under the pad before
the first joint nearest the fingertip.

3d,
that the end of the thumb touches the holder opposite the lower joint of
the fore finger;

See, this "lower joint" sounds like the one closest to the palm, the
farthest from the fingertip. I'm getting confused. Which end is up? ("Who's
on first?")

4th, that the top of the holder points towards the
right shoulder;

This forces the writer to cock the wrist inward, doesn't it?

5th, that the wrist is above the paper, and the hand
resting lightly on the nails of the third and fourth fingers; 6th, that
the point of the pen comes squarely to the paper."

The book further describes two different strokes, the light stroke and
the shades strokes. With light strokes being formed "by moving the pen
lightly on the paper without springing or spreading the teeth," and
shaded strokes formed "by springing the pen by a pressure to spread the
teeth, then lightening the pressure, and allowing them to return to
place."

Few people today use this form of holding the pen,

From what I got from the description, it sounds uncomfortable.

or writing, and what
is considered light in the fountain pen world, even though it is very
light, may not be light enough for a flexible steel dip pen. With a
fountain pen, sometimes there are certain directions and shapes to make
that require a bit more pressure to make the proper ink flow that you
want. With a steel dip pen like those I use, these additional pressures
will deliver very different stokes than what most people expect, and so
a very ilght touch is usually required, with the shaded strokes being
formed deliberately.

As for dipping, I notice that some of the replies want you to brush the
nib with a brush or drop into the feed system. I think these are all
good ideas when absolute writing integrity must be guaranteed, but when
it comes to daily correspondence, this method seems very slow to me, and
I prefer to dip the nib straight into the bottle. I use Mont Blanc
bottles to store my ink, and they work very well for maintaining the
proper depth of ink for dipping.

How far do you dip? Do you dip the entire nib or halfway or what? My glass
pen has grooves that spiral upward that are supposed to hold ink for longer
writing, but I get too much ink and too wide of a line when I dip more than
about 1/8" up the tip.

I dip pretty often, but quickly, and so
this isn't a problem. I find that with practice, you can reduce or
completely eliminate blobs.

Thanks for the encouragement.


--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.



[1] ISBN: 0-88062-082-X

--
Aaron Hsu | Jabber:
``Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to
live at the expense of everybody else.'' - Frederic Bastiat

"MatthewK" wrote in message
...
On 2008-06-07, Brian Ketterling
wrote:
In ,
Bluesea wrote:


Maybe what I need is a reservoir pen.

A while back, in a jumble of dip pens I bought on eBay (containing the
Esterbrook "Dip-Less" I wanted), I found several holders with FP-style HR
feeds, and a little ink space in the handles behind the feeds. Something
like that might work for you -- I wonder whether anyone makes them
anymore.
(Am I describing a "reservoir pen", BTW?)


I'm out of my league when you guys start talking about
esterbrooks and vintage pens but this may be interesting if you
didn't know such a thing existed.

http://www.ackermanpens.com/

Well, that looks interesting.

These statements sound contradictory to me, though, because it wouldn't plug
up if it can be cleaned:

- Replace the brush when it wears down or plugs up.

- Easy to clean - just hold it under running water.


--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On 2008-06-08, Aaron Hsu wrote:
MatthewK wrote:


Yeah, I know exactly what your talkinga about. I can't think of
the site now but I'm sure you know it. It has video tutorials
on copperplate and spencerian and some old manuals in pdf
format. Amazing stuff really.

I haven't seen any videos, if you could provide a URL that would be
great. I actually started with some PDFs of old manuals, but then found
an excellent little book that has been republished for modern
Spencerian. The only change, I believe the authors made to the original
was changing the shape of the L to make it more practical for today's
readers, but I use the slightly older form.

Thanks for the book recomendation, I just found it on amazon.

http://www.zanerian.com/

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons.php

http://www.iampeth.com/books.php

http://www.iampeth.com/videos.php

Hope this is useful to you.

Thanks for telling us about your penmanship.

matthew

On 2008-06-08, Bluesea wrote:


The brush and dropper techniques are way too much bother for my temperament.
Maybe dipping is too, but I'm willing to have another go at it.


Yeah, me too. I tried that last night and it worked but was
slow...it would be fine for special writing but not what I do.

The reservoirs hold enough for a couple of sentences on
reasonable nibs.

matthew

On 2008-06-08, Bluesea wrote:

"MatthewK" wrote in message

I'm out of my league when you guys start talking about
esterbrooks and vintage pens but this may be interesting if you
didn't know such a thing existed.

http://www.ackermanpens.com/

Well, that looks interesting.

These statements sound contradictory to me, though, because it wouldn't plug
up if it can be cleaned:

- Replace the brush when it wears down or plugs up.

- Easy to clean - just hold it under running water.

It seems that it is a love or hate thing with most people. I
guess artist can't be trusted to clean a pen after use lol. On
the website he prides himself on how tought the pens are...if
you get a plug of india ink stuck in there that poke it out
with a paper clip.

matthew

On 2008-06-07, Brian Ketterling wrote:
In ,
MatthewK wrote:

http://www.ackermanpens.com/

I first read about these on stutler's sketching forum and I
guess they can be pretty messy.

If you pump ink out onto the nib, I can believe it can be messy, but it's a
lot more elegant than an older design I've seen (made by Speedball? -- I
can't remember at the moment). That one has a big, fat handle, and a thin
metal tube that comes out alongside the nib, then curves in to deposit the
ink on the nib.


Peoples biggest problem seems to be in getting the super-tight
cap off. Inky fingers and all that from the vacuum. I read on
stutler's forum that before putting the pen away one should
inverte the pen so it is nib up. Then use a rag to soak the ink
out of the nib. After that, pump it to allow the ink to fall
back in the reservoir.

Durring use I think one needs to check the nib for too much ink
frequently.

The caps tend to fit far too tight and the body/nib can have
a bad fit causing an air leak. I had that problem with a wality
69 piston filler so I put some beeswax in that area. It started
to leak from the viewer window after that.

The nice thing is that Ackerman seems willing to work with
customers and make his product fit thier needs. As long as the
ackerman is approached as a dip pen with a reservoir I think it
could be a very usefull thing.

matthew
ohio

On 2008-06-07, The Drunken Lord wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:45:59 +0000, MatthewK
wrote:

I'm out of my league when you guys start talking about
esterbrooks and vintage pens but this may be interesting if you
didn't know such a thing existed.

Esterbrook made a whole bunch of different types of nibs, and then
when fountain pens came out, people were stuck with warehouses full of
them, and they're still around, and you can get them pretty cheap.

Esterbrook also made fountain pens later on.

Thank you, I knew about the FP's but didn't realize the
esterbrook pre-dated them. I wish I got into FP's ten years
ago and could afford the popular nibs.

matthew

On 2008-06-07, The Drunken Lord wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:32:00 +0000, MatthewK
wrote:

Why don't you like the glass pens?

I don't like rounded points--I kind of have to have stubs or italic
points. My handwriting is out of control even with stubs and italics,
but it helps keep my hand more steady. I don't have any muscle
disease or anything like that--I just write too fast.


Thanks for sharing that. I may purchase one on my next order to
pendemonium.

As far as stub italic pens go I really like the pilot 78g. Have
you tried it? Hisnibs has them for under $30 dollars I think.
It seems to do best with less saturated inks.

matthew

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:57:04 +0000, MatthewK
wrote:

On 2008-06-07, The Drunken Lord wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:45:59 +0000, MatthewK
wrote:

I'm out of my league when you guys start talking about
esterbrooks and vintage pens but this may be interesting if you
didn't know such a thing existed.

Esterbrook made a whole bunch of different types of nibs, and then
when fountain pens came out, people were stuck with warehouses full of
them, and they're still around, and you can get them pretty cheap.

Esterbrook also made fountain pens later on.

Thank you, I knew about the FP's but didn't realize the
esterbrook pre-dated them. I wish I got into FP's ten years
ago and could afford the popular nibs.

Esterbrook nibs are pretty cheap. Not many people have much use for
them.

Esterbrook pens are not all that expensive on ebay--or they used to
not be so expensive.

I think somebody could buy Frank's book from Pendemonium, buy some
supplies and some tools, and buy pens that need some work on ebay for
pretty cheap and have a decent collection of some old pens that work
well.

We aren't talking fine jewelry. Some of those old pens are expensive
on ebay even when they're in disrepair.