AU58-BU Indian Head Grading Observations

Was notified by PCGS that a 1859 Indian Head Cent I sent for grading
had been give a grade of AU58. Not too long ago I sent in a 1955
Double Die Cent which still had some red mint luster and was given the
same grade. From what I have seen at shows and on the internet PCGS
appears to be really hard on copper coins. On the 1955 I could not
see the "rub" and neither could my dealer. On the 1859 the coin was
cracked out of a ANACS holder which had the appearance of being opened
and resealed at one time. The grade on the holder was MS62. When I
compare my Indian cents which are in NGC holders vs PCGS it appears to
me that PCGS is usually 1-2 points lower on similar coins. I have
also noticed that NGC will give a Indian Cent a designation of MS66 RB
or MS66 Brown when I have never seen a Indian Cent from PCGS in those
grades. I realize that PCGS coins usually get higher prices in the
marketplace, howerver, the difference in price between AU58 and MS can
be substantial no matter which company did the evaluation. The other
thing I have noticed is most grading companies with the exception of
PCGS tend to grade older (100+ years) coins more liberaly. I have
seen coins by NGC, ANACS, ICS, SEGS which have been graded MS which in
fact had they been modern coins they would have received AU status.
Anyone else noticed this disparity?

David

In article , Ira Stein
spoke thusly...
David wrote:

When I
compare my Indian cents which are in NGC holders vs PCGS it appears to
me that PCGS is usually 1-2 points lower on similar coins. snip

PCGS is much tougher in small cents than ANY of the other grading services.
That's why they command such a premium on the marketplace. I had a red NGC 64
in MS-63, some minor spotting, as expected, and my customer wanted in a PCGS
holder. Told him it was abit risky. He wanted it done regardless, so I cracked
it out and sent raw to PCGS. Came back AU58! That coin had no wear under a 7X
glass! This was about 2 years ago and PCGS is even tougher now.

I don't consider myself a slab basher but...They graded an MS coin
with minor spotting as a circulated coin?!?!?! That sounds more than
tough.


--
Stu Miller
The Grading Challenge...New coin this week:
http://www.TheStujoeCollection.com/grade/
Director, RCC Mint
http://www.TheStujoeCollection.com/rccmint

Stu Miller wrote:



I don't consider myself a slab basher but...They graded an MS coin
with minor spotting as a circulated coin?!?!?! That sounds more than
tough.


actually that's not uncommon,. Yo could send it in 3 minths later and perhaps
get a MS-62. All the grading companies "market grade" tehse days, so if the
primary grader felt the coin was worth only AU58 money in teh marketplace
because of the spots, he would give it a "not quite" unc grade of AU58.

Yet another grader at the ssme company might reve=ceivce it another taime and
call it a highergrade, not discounting the spots at all forthe grade.

This is a problem for ALL the grading companies, not just PCGS. PCGS is,
however, tougher on most series than the other companies. At least, that's what
I have observed in teh past few years.

David Hall, CEO of PCGS, has publicly stated that he wants only the nicest
coins in PCGS holders. Well, Ithink that attitude has influennced he graders.
If you do object to a grade, you can pay extra $$ for Presidential review.
Sometimes you can get an upgrade that way. I have.



Ira Stein

I should clarify my last post on this subject.

I don't mean to imply that you can BUY a hiigher grade, you cannot. Many times
David Hall will look at the coin and simply agree with the grading team. Other
times he'll walk it around the floor and seek a consesus among the graders. If
the consensus is that the coin should be upgraded due to an overly strict
initial grade, they will do so.

That's the problem with all grading. It's objective AND subjective.
Repeatability is often an issue. PCGS errs as they all do. When they have erred
in recent years, however, they tend to err on the side of conservatsim.

That's why when you see runaway prices on coins at auction, they are often in a
PCGS holder (the $27,800 1912S PCGS MS-65 red Lincoln Cent comes to mind). The
winning bidder, a well known dealer, thought he could get a one point upgrade.
If he had done so, he had a buyer who would have paid $60,000 for the coin. So
far it has NOT upgraded although it HAS been tried! He'll try again....and
again..and again if necessary. I saw the coin and I thought it was a very high
end MS-65 and I would have paid 2.5 X wholesale asked for it. It went for
almost 10X my limit. But I had no buyer for it at $60,000, the bidder did with
a 1 point upgrade.


Ira Stein

"Ira Stein" wrote in message

I should clarify my last post on this subject.

I don't mean to imply that you can BUY a hiigher grade, you cannot.
Many times David Hall will look at the coin and simply agree with the
grading team. Other times he'll walk it around the floor and seek a
consesus among the graders. If the consensus is that the coin should
be upgraded due to an overly strict initial grade, they will do so.

snip .


Ira Stein

Ira,
Do the other graders actually over rule a fellow grader? *I* would
think they wouldn't want to potentially embarrass a peer / co-worker. I
guess it does happen, as you said you got an upgrade. I just find it odd
that the graders would second guess one of their own (same company).

Does David Hall leave the coin in the slab when showing it around?

Ed

Ed asks:

Ira,
Do the other graders actually over rule a fellow grader? *I* would
think they wouldn't want to potentially embarrass a peer / co-worker. I
guess it does happen, as you said you got an upgrade. I just find it odd
that the graders would second guess one of their own (same company).

Does David Hall leave the coin in the slab when showing it around?

Ed


It's left in the slab, but I imagine the previous grade is covered with opaque
tape or a blank label. There are about 20 graders, so not all will agree, but
in that way a consensus is obtained.

Most of the time I imagine, Hall looks at the coin, and if he agrees with the
grade, no consensus is sought. If he feels that a particularly tough call was
made and he doesn't agree with it, then he asks for a consensus. He won't ask
them to change the grade, just render a consensus opinion. If it's higher than
the previous opinion, then the grade gets changed.

Ira Stein

As an active collector who focuses on the Flying Eagle/Indian Cent
series, I agree with Ira regarding the PCGS grading issue. They are
more strict than the other services, including NGC. However, regarding
quality and inventory, I suggest you try Rick Snow at Eagle Eye Rare
Coins (Indiancent.com). He is probably the premier specialist in the
series, and has the highest quality coins I've found. If you're
looking for fully struck, high quality coins, Rick has the most
comprehensive inventory, in both business strikes and proof issues.
However, you will pay for them. Frequently though, he's no more
expensive that many of the other top dealers. Also, if you buy, say a
MS63RB from him and later want to upgrade, he will give you full trade
in for your original coin. That's a real plus for me and an almost "no
lose" situation.






ospam (Ira Stein) wrote in message ...
David wrote:

When I
compare my Indian cents which are in NGC holders vs PCGS it appears to
me that PCGS is usually 1-2 points lower on similar coins. snip

PCGS is much tougher in small cents than ANY of the other grading services.
That's why they command such a premium on the marketplace. I had a red NGC 64
in MS-63, some minor spotting, as expected, and my customer wanted in a PCGS
holder. Told him it was abit risky. He wanted it done regardless, so I cracked
it out and sent raw to PCGS. Came back AU58! That coin had no wear under a 7X
glass! This was about 2 years ago and PCGS is even tougher now.

I rarely buy any small cents except in PCGS holders these days..but, except for
more common dates, anything earlier than 1890 is almost impossible to find at
shows except in NGC or ANACS holders.

Angel Dee's always has some nice red Indians PCGS graded in better dates but at
about 1.5-2X Trends. Still, if it's high quality you're after, Andy at Angel
Dee's has got the goods.

Ira

Ira Stein