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#21
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Isn't it amusing that they can whine about you showing them (for no
profit to you whatsoever) yet they have no problem with them being on stamps and franking covers all over the world (a profit for the perspective postal offices)? It sounds like they took lessons from the idiots in the US where I live. Life would be so much easier without lawyers..... Grandpa John amesh wrote: This is an ooold question, raised by me about 2-3 years ago, but here goes again. I have recently been contacted by the Danish Copyright Organisation (Copy-Dan), who has notified me that according to European copyright legislation it is not allowed to show stamps or philatelic material on the Internet, insofar such stamps depict artworks by artists who were still alive within the latest 70 years. Such material may only be shown in public on condition that an explicit permission has been obtained from the artist's estate, or if a substantial due is paid to Copy-Dan to protect the estate's (or the still living artist's) legal rights. |
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#22
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amesh wrote:
They have sent me a plain ultimatum: "Remove the images and files listed, or pay 4,500 DKK (vat 25% included) per month to Copy-Dan for our permission, given on behalf of the estate". And they did include a formal invoice, well specified over some 10-12 pages! That leaves me no choice other than removing the files, does it? Mette You *might* consider removing them, then pursueing it in court. That way if you do lose, there is no big financial hit to yourself. Grandpa John |
#23
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Mette, Douglas, et al, I realize that the old adage, a good decision makes for bad law, may come into play here. (If you open a crack in the door for good intentioned people, you let through the door all the bad.) But I am a logical person and even as an artist I feel that if you don't want to be in public, don't go outside. If you don't want to be part of the collective conscience, shut up and stay out of sight. If you want to control an image, don't put it on 100,000,000 stamps. I would bet 10 lbs of ctos that Copy-Dan would lose in court. I think that it would be thrown out before it started as 'silly' or 'trivial'. Why? because of precedence. The image was allowed to be used in a format where for over a century these images have been and must be used to educate, to tell of history, to be collected and resold. The reason that the art has appeared on millions of stamps is because of it's historical and cultural significance. It isn't just a waste of time to police it as copy-dan is, it is mildly dumb, anti-education, and anti-fair use. It is my sense that who has the last say in who can reproduce a stamp's image is the issuing entity of the stamp. The artist's estate or Copy-Dan's control of the 'stamp' image ended when they allowed it to be on the stamp. I would direct Copy-Dan to contact the issuing entities of the stamps and not bother you, Mette. You are part of something much greater, much older, more significant, and more powerful that Copy-Dan. You are not manufacturing stamps or art or posters or t-shirts, you are a historian, a reporter spreading news. I will gladly appear in your defense (or offense) against such nonsense. |
#24
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"John DeBoo" wrote in message ... Isn't it amusing that they can whine about you showing them (for no profit to you whatsoever) yet they have no problem with them being on stamps and franking covers all over the world (a profit for the perspective postal offices)? It sounds like they took lessons from the idiots in the US where I live. Life would be so much easier without lawyers..... Grandpa John Whoa there Grandpa. Douglas (Retired intellectual property lawyer) |
#25
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Thanks to all of you for your immense support, both here on this group and
privately. I never realized that I had so many friends out there, both among the regulars on RCSD and among the lurkers :-) I shall now hide away for a while and think the situation over before taking any actkon. I have some ideas, but need to air them in connection with legal advice. A rather turbulent weekend is over, starting with that infamous letter on Saturday morning! For the moment the files in question are removed, and life goes on. The whole thing is not sooo disastrous, as I can still show any artist in any context up to 1935, provided that the artist involved was dead in 1935 or earlier; from next year until 1936, and so on. I will for sure not be "out of the market" because of this! ;-) Thanks again to all of you, and Best regards Mette "amesh" skrev i en meddelelse k... This is an ooold question, raised by me about 2-3 years ago, but here goes again. I have recently been contacted by the Danish Copyright Organisation (Copy-Dan), who has notified me that according to European copyright legislation it is not allowed to show stamps or philatelic material on the Internet, insofar such stamps depict artworks by artists who were still alive within the latest 70 years. Such material may only be shown in public on condition that an explicit permission has been obtained from the artist's estate, or if a substantial due is paid to Copy-Dan to protect the estate's (or the still living artist's) legal rights. Example 1. Pablo Picasso died in 1973. His art works as a whole are protected from being shown in public until 70 years after his death, i.e. they can only be shown on the Internet or other public exhibitions in 2043 (!), unless the exhibitor can provide a written permission from the estate (or the copyright owner) or pays a *very* substantial due to Copy-Dan for the permission (for a limited period of 1 month). Any art work -- whether on stamps or not -- may not be reproduced without the explicit written permission of the estate, or payment of dues to Copy-Dan for the permission. Example 2. Arnold Machin died in 1999. The case is the same as for Picasso, and stamps designed by Machin may not be shown on the Internet or elsewhere in the public before 2069. Esample 3: A living post war artist, who has had the luck of having one of his art works published on a stamp by a postal administration (of whichever nationality), can not have his/her art work on the stamp shown in public until 70 years after his death (whenever that may be). Given that he/she is still alive and may easily live for another 30 years, his work on stamps is not admissible to the public for the nest 100 years -- even when issued legally on a stamp !!! It is unimportant to Copy-Dan that stamps and philatelic material may be legally issued by a national post office for postal purposes. Copy-Dan does not consider the issuing postal administration (of whichever nationality) the legal copyright owner with regard to showing art stamps and related philatelic material on the Internet or special museum exhibits, as long as the artist is still alive or hasn't been dead for at least 70 years. The rigid interpretation is that the artist must have passed away 70 years prior to the issues in question -- if not, either the exhibitor produces a written permission from the artist / his estate, or pays his dues as settled by Copy-Dan. I know of a recent case in Great Britain, where the National Gallery in London had planned an exhibit of the Art Nouveau artist Alfons Mucha in collaboration with the Czech National Gallery. The exhibit was stopped by Mucha's estate, claiming that Mucha died "only" in 1939, and that the exhibit could therefore not be shown legally before 2009. There are other similar cases in Europe, based on this rigid interpretation, which have nearly ruined the exhibitors who have worked in good faith. Copy-Dan has sent me a looong list of sister-organisations throughout the world, and notified me that they will chase anyone in any country (through their network) offending the interpretation of the current copyright legislation, which is applicable within the EU and all affiliated nations in Europe and the Mediterranean Area. How are things working in *your* country? -- Best regards Ann Mette Heindorff (Mette) ------ Outgoing messages.checked with Norton AV |
#26
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"amesh" wrote in message k... "Douglas Myall" skrev i en meddelelse ... - snip - Do they, specifically, claim to act for Arnold Machin's estate? Yes. I will check this with Francis, Arnold Machin's son. Might I expect to receive an invoice from them for my reproductions of Machin stamps on my Handbook CD although I already have written permission for this from Royal Mail? No, with a written permission from the copyright owner you are on the safe side. But you would never receive an invoice from Copy-Dan. They would notify their British sister organisation to take action for what happens in England. That would seem to indicate that Copy-Dan concede that the copyright in reproductions of Machin's sculpture on stamps and thus in reproductions of those stamps is vested in Royal Mail and not in Machin's estate. If I should ever receive a claim for royalties on the coloured images of Machin stamps on my CD, whether from Copy-Dan or any English equivalent claiming to act on behalf of Machin's estate, it would be defended vigorously and publicly. Douglas |
#27
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"amesh" wrote in message
k... This is an ooold question, raised by me about 2-3 years ago, but here goes again. I have recently been contacted by the Danish Copyright Organisation (Copy-Dan), who has notified me that according to European copyright legislation it is not allowed to show stamps or philatelic material on the Internet, insofar such stamps depict artworks by artists who were still alive within the latest 70 years. Such material may only be shown in public on condition that an explicit permission has been obtained from the artist's estate, or if a substantial due is paid to Copy-Dan to protect the estate's (or the still living artist's) legal rights. snip It is unimportant to Copy-Dan that stamps and philatelic material may be legally issued by a national post office for postal purposes. Copy-Dan does not consider the issuing postal administration (of whichever nationality) the legal copyright owner with regard to showing art stamps and related philatelic material on the Internet or special museum exhibits, as long as the artist is still alive or hasn't been dead for at least 70 years. The rigid interpretation is that the artist must have passed away 70 years prior to the issues in question -- if not, either the exhibitor produces a written permission from the artist / his estate, or pays his dues as settled by Copy-Dan. snip Copy-Dan has sent me a looong list of sister-organisations throughout the world, and notified me that they will chase anyone in any country (through their network) offending the interpretation of the current copyright legislation, which is applicable within the EU and all affiliated nations in Europe and the Mediterranean Area. How are things working in *your* country? I don't know how the things are in my country, and I surely won't ask. An idea could be that you ask for support the Danish Philatelic Association and the FIP (who awarded you in the recent past for your websites). Aren't they supposed to help the development of philately, on the Web and elsewhere? This is exactly what you have done; I wonder how could you do it without presenting the material (stamps) about that you were writing about? -- Victor Manta |
#28
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#29
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Mette, why are you tackling this alone? There are hundreds, maybe
thousands, of people like you with that problem. Collective action is required. Have you consulted a lawyer friend about what he thinks? It will cost you nothing. Tony "amesh" wrote in message k... Thanks to all of you for your immense support, both here on this group and privately. I never realized that I had so many friends out there, both among the regulars on RCSD and among the lurkers :-) I shall now hide away for a while and think the situation over before taking any actkon. I have some ideas, but need to air them in connection with legal advice. A rather turbulent weekend is over, starting with that infamous letter on Saturday morning! For the moment the files in question are removed, and life goes on. The whole thing is not sooo disastrous, as I can still show any artist in any context up to 1935, provided that the artist involved was dead in 1935 or earlier; from next year until 1936, and so on. I will for sure not be "out of the market" because of this! ;-) Thanks again to all of you, and Best regards Mette "amesh" skrev i en meddelelse k... This is an ooold question, raised by me about 2-3 years ago, but here goes again. I have recently been contacted by the Danish Copyright Organisation (Copy-Dan), who has notified me that according to European copyright legislation it is not allowed to show stamps or philatelic material on the Internet, insofar such stamps depict artworks by artists who were still alive within the latest 70 years. Such material may only be shown in public on condition that an explicit permission has been obtained from the artist's estate, or if a substantial due is paid to Copy-Dan to protect the estate's (or the still living artist's) legal rights. Example 1. Pablo Picasso died in 1973. His art works as a whole are protected from being shown in public until 70 years after his death, i.e. they can only be shown on the Internet or other public exhibitions in 2043 (!), unless the exhibitor can provide a written permission from the estate (or the copyright owner) or pays a *very* substantial due to Copy-Dan for the permission (for a limited period of 1 month). Any art work -- whether on stamps or not -- may not be reproduced without the explicit written permission of the estate, or payment of dues to Copy-Dan for the permission. Example 2. Arnold Machin died in 1999. The case is the same as for Picasso, and stamps designed by Machin may not be shown on the Internet or elsewhere in the public before 2069. Esample 3: A living post war artist, who has had the luck of having one of his art works published on a stamp by a postal administration (of whichever nationality), can not have his/her art work on the stamp shown in public until 70 years after his death (whenever that may be). Given that he/she is still alive and may easily live for another 30 years, his work on stamps is not admissible to the public for the nest 100 years -- even when issued legally on a stamp !!! It is unimportant to Copy-Dan that stamps and philatelic material may be legally issued by a national post office for postal purposes. Copy-Dan does not consider the issuing postal administration (of whichever nationality) the legal copyright owner with regard to showing art stamps and related philatelic material on the Internet or special museum exhibits, as long as the artist is still alive or hasn't been dead for at least 70 years. The rigid interpretation is that the artist must have passed away 70 years prior to the issues in question -- if not, either the exhibitor produces a written permission from the artist / his estate, or pays his dues as settled by Copy-Dan. I know of a recent case in Great Britain, where the National Gallery in London had planned an exhibit of the Art Nouveau artist Alfons Mucha in collaboration with the Czech National Gallery. The exhibit was stopped by Mucha's estate, claiming that Mucha died "only" in 1939, and that the exhibit could therefore not be shown legally before 2009. There are other similar cases in Europe, based on this rigid interpretation, which have nearly ruined the exhibitors who have worked in good faith. Copy-Dan has sent me a looong list of sister-organisations throughout the world, and notified me that they will chase anyone in any country (through their network) offending the interpretation of the current copyright legislation, which is applicable within the EU and all affiliated nations in Europe and the Mediterranean Area. How are things working in *your* country? -- Best regards Ann Mette Heindorff (Mette) ------ Outgoing messages.checked with Norton AV ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#30
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"A.E. Gelat" skrev i en meddelelse
... Mette, why are you tackling this alone? There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people like you with that problem. Collective action is required. Have you consulted a lawyer friend about what he thinks? It will cost you nothing. Tony, I received the letter with the ultimatum from Copy-Dan only yesterday, Saturday, so there has been no time to consult anybody so far. I need no lawyer friends, but a super professonal barrister, one who is specialized in copyright legislation and intellectual properties, and who has absolutely no connection with me in daily life, in order to stay totally objective. This is not a case about my person, but a case about principal philatelic interests. I have made up my own thoughts and arguments, and am ready for a meeting during this coming week. We shall see what happens. Thanks for your support :-) Mette Tony "amesh" wrote in message k... Thanks to all of you for your immense support, both here on this group and privately. I never realized that I had so many friends out there, both among the regulars on RCSD and among the lurkers :-) I shall now hide away for a while and think the situation over before taking any actkon. I have some ideas, but need to air them in connection with legal advice. A rather turbulent weekend is over, starting with that infamous letter on Saturday morning! For the moment the files in question are removed, and life goes on. The whole thing is not sooo disastrous, as I can still show any artist in any context up to 1935, provided that the artist involved was dead in 1935 or earlier; from next year until 1936, and so on. I will for sure not be "out of the market" because of this! ;-) Thanks again to all of you, and Best regards Mette "amesh" skrev i en meddelelse k... This is an ooold question, raised by me about 2-3 years ago, but here goes again. I have recently been contacted by the Danish Copyright Organisation (Copy-Dan), who has notified me that according to European copyright legislation it is not allowed to show stamps or philatelic material on the Internet, insofar such stamps depict artworks by artists who were still alive within the latest 70 years. Such material may only be shown in public on condition that an explicit permission has been obtained from the artist's estate, or if a substantial due is paid to Copy-Dan to protect the estate's (or the still living artist's) legal rights. Example 1. Pablo Picasso died in 1973. His art works as a whole are protected from being shown in public until 70 years after his death, i.e. they can only be shown on the Internet or other public exhibitions in 2043 (!), unless the exhibitor can provide a written permission from the estate (or the copyright owner) or pays a *very* substantial due to Copy-Dan for the permission (for a limited period of 1 month). Any art work -- whether on stamps or not -- may not be reproduced without the explicit written permission of the estate, or payment of dues to Copy-Dan for the permission. Example 2. Arnold Machin died in 1999. The case is the same as for Picasso, and stamps designed by Machin may not be shown on the Internet or elsewhere in the public before 2069. Esample 3: A living post war artist, who has had the luck of having one of his art works published on a stamp by a postal administration (of whichever nationality), can not have his/her art work on the stamp shown in public until 70 years after his death (whenever that may be). Given that he/she is still alive and may easily live for another 30 years, his work on stamps is not admissible to the public for the nest 100 years -- even when issued legally on a stamp !!! It is unimportant to Copy-Dan that stamps and philatelic material may be legally issued by a national post office for postal purposes. Copy-Dan does not consider the issuing postal administration (of whichever nationality) the legal copyright owner with regard to showing art stamps and related philatelic material on the Internet or special museum exhibits, as long as the artist is still alive or hasn't been dead for at least 70 years. The rigid interpretation is that the artist must have passed away 70 years prior to the issues in question -- if not, either the exhibitor produces a written permission from the artist / his estate, or pays his dues as settled by Copy-Dan. I know of a recent case in Great Britain, where the National Gallery in London had planned an exhibit of the Art Nouveau artist Alfons Mucha in collaboration with the Czech National Gallery. The exhibit was stopped by Mucha's estate, claiming that Mucha died "only" in 1939, and that the exhibit could therefore not be shown legally before 2009. There are other similar cases in Europe, based on this rigid interpretation, which have nearly ruined the exhibitors who have worked in good faith. Copy-Dan has sent me a looong list of sister-organisations throughout the world, and notified me that they will chase anyone in any country (through their network) offending the interpretation of the current copyright legislation, which is applicable within the EU and all affiliated nations in Europe and the Mediterranean Area. How are things working in *your* country? -- Best regards Ann Mette Heindorff (Mette) ------ Outgoing messages.checked with Norton AV ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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