Customer thinks I'm a liar, cheat & thief

Last week I had 2 or 3 different discussions with a man about the collection
his 80 year old mother had. This was a collection that had belonged to his
father with a few pieces from grandparents, etc. He stated that the
decision to sell would be his mother's and that she was too frail to bring
it into the shop and could we come to them and do the appraisal. He
estimated the collection in the 50K range.

This past Wednesday at noon, Troy (my partner) and I go out to see them. It
turns out it really wasn't a collection, but more of an accumulation. The
only nice coin was a 1798 Lg Cent in Fine. Everything else was basically
junk silver and 6 Kugerrands. The son thought "1OZ" on the Kugs meant 10
ounces. In this accumulation were 56 (or so) common date Morgan & Peace
dollars including about 20 1922 Peace dollars in AU/BU. These dollars are
coins that we typically buy for $11-$12 and put in our "$15 Each" tray.
These were not gem bu coins, just low grade uncs (talking the Peace dollars
here, the Morgan's were all G-VF).

After all is said and done, it comes to about $13,000. The mother and son
mull it over for a few minutes and agree to the price. We get back to the
shop and dump the junk silver into the buckets where we dump all the silver
that come in the door. Pretty much everything gets processed into our
inventory. And that pretty much ends the day on Wednesday.

Thursday morning the phone rings in the shop within a minute or two of my
arrival (I'm always the 1st one there). It's the woman who sold the coins,
says she didn't sleep all night and says she shouldn't have sold them and
wants them back. I told her most of it was already mixed into all the other
junk silver, but to let me see what I could do and I would call her back by
10:30 (she called at 9:00am).

At 10:35 Charlotte tried to call her back (3 time), but the ladies phone was
"out of order". At 12:00, I get a phone call from the lady's attorney. He
says she wants her money back, that we didn't return her call, and that we
"grossly under paid" what the coins were worth. I was shocked and offended
(and told him so). I asked him to name a single coin that we "grossly under
paid" her on. He tells me that according to the "guide" the 1921's were
worth "hundreds" of dollars and the 1922 dollars were worth "upwards of
$40,000"! And we "stole" them for $11-$12 each.

I replied in shock, "What on earth "guide" are you looking at?" He's looking
at the Redbook, far right column on the 1922 High Relief PF 65 Peace dollar.
And he looking at 1921 Peace dollar rather than the 1921 Morgan dollar. I
really unloaded on this guy (not my nature) for about 10 minutes. I gave
him some specifics about the 1922 Peace High Relief dollar (like a PCGS pop.
of about 5), the difference between a 1921 Morgan and Peace dollar. I
invited him to call ANY dealer in the country and ask what they pay for
common date Peace & Morgan dollars. I really blasted this idiot. Told him
if he really had the best interest of his client at stake he should have
them come in and see us, and we'd see what we could do.

A couple of hours later the lady and her son come in. The lady is visible
upset and shaking. I told her I would give her her $500+/- face of silver
and her 56 Dollars back if she felt so strong about it. I also told her
that they would not be the exact coins because they all got dumped into
buckets with other coins. That was not acceptable to them. They are
convinced that they had something like 20, 1922 High Relief 1922 Peace
dollars, and that we are stealing them. No amount of explaining could
convince them how unlikely it was that they had ONE, much less 20 of the
coins.

They stormed out mad. I fully expect to be sued on this.

Wes Chormicle wrote:
Last week I had 2 or 3 different discussions with a man about the collection
his 80 year old mother had.

Story snipped for brevity

At 10:35 Charlotte tried to call her back (3 time), but the ladies phone was
"out of order". At 12:00, I get a phone call from the lady's attorney. He
says she wants her money back, that we didn't return her call, and that we
"grossly under paid" what the coins were worth. I was shocked and offended
(and told him so). I asked him to name a single coin that we "grossly under
paid" her on. He tells me that according to the "guide" the 1921's were
worth "hundreds" of dollars and the 1922 dollars were worth "upwards of
$40,000"! And we "stole" them for $11-$12 each.

Remainder of story snipped for brevity.

Practice law without a license and scum like this dirtbag would have
you in court so fast your head would spin. But HE'S permitted to grade
coins and assess value, even though he's blatantly incompetent when it
comes to numismatics.

They stormed out mad. I fully expect to be sued on this.

Have your attorney prepare charges of misrepresentation against their
attorney. Oh, wait. Good old boy network. Sorry. Never mind.

Jerry

Practice law without a license and scum like this dirtbag would have
you in court so fast your head would spin. But HE'S permitted to grade

coins and assess value, even though he's blatantly incompetent when it
comes to numismatics.


Is the case going to rest on the lady and her attorney somehow proving
that the
coins were worth that much money? That could be very interesting.

Wes Chormicle wrote:
Last week I had 2 or 3 different discussions with a man about the collection
snip
They stormed out mad. I fully expect to be sued on this.



Here's where scanning in a collection for inventory purposes would ease
any problems like this that might come up.

Wes Chormicle wrote:
....
They stormed out mad. I fully expect to be sued on this.

What a mess. I can empathize with you. People get angry when they learn
their treasures are not worth much. Doing business with this type of
anger would not be fun. Judging from the price you paid, there were a
lot of coins, so you did what you could. Even if you had kept the coins
separate for a while, the woman would say that you switched coins.

I imagine you kept a sheet for tabulation of the appraised value. I
hope you kept the sheet and gave them a copy. If they agreed to it at
the time of sale, then you should be in the clear.

I wish that she had turned down the money right away, rather than
accepting it, then causing such trouble. Confused people can create so
much trouble.

Anita

I wish that she had turned down the money right away, rather than
accepting it, then causing such trouble. Confused people can create so
much trouble.

Anita


With what Silver & Gold are doing at the moment, I wish they had turned it
down too!

"Wes Chormicle" lamented:
They stormed out mad. I fully expect to be sued on this.

Wes, I am really saddened to hear that this situation has come your way.
Our society has become so litigation-happy, with people suing each other at
the drop of a hat, that you may be right on these people initiating a
frivolous suit against you. Honest and integrity sometime exacts a steep
price. Please know that I'm pulling for you in ways that some would not
understand...

Larry

Wes Chormicle wrote:
Last week I had 2 or 3 different discussions with a man about the collection
his 80 year old mother had. This was a collection that had belonged to his
father with a few pieces from grandparents, etc. He stated that the
decision to sell would be his mother's and that she was too frail to bring
it into the shop and could we come to them and do the appraisal. He
estimated the collection in the 50K range.

This past Wednesday at noon, Troy (my partner) and I go out to see them. It
turns out it really wasn't a collection, but more of an accumulation. The
only nice coin was a 1798 Lg Cent in Fine. Everything else was basically
junk silver and 6 Kugerrands. The son thought "1OZ" on the Kugs meant 10
ounces. In this accumulation were 56 (or so) common date Morgan & Peace
dollars including about 20 1922 Peace dollars in AU/BU. These dollars are
coins that we typically buy for $11-$12 and put in our "$15 Each" tray.
These were not gem bu coins, just low grade uncs (talking the Peace dollars
here, the Morgan's were all G-VF).

After all is said and done, it comes to about $13,000. The mother and son
mull it over for a few minutes and agree to the price. We get back to the
shop and dump the junk silver into the buckets where we dump all the silver
that come in the door. Pretty much everything gets processed into our
inventory. And that pretty much ends the day on Wednesday.

Thursday morning the phone rings in the shop within a minute or two of my
arrival (I'm always the 1st one there). It's the woman who sold the coins,
says she didn't sleep all night and says she shouldn't have sold them and
wants them back. I told her most of it was already mixed into all the other
junk silver, but to let me see what I could do and I would call her back by
10:30 (she called at 9:00am).

At 10:35 Charlotte tried to call her back (3 time), but the ladies phone was
"out of order". At 12:00, I get a phone call from the lady's attorney. He
says she wants her money back, that we didn't return her call, and that we
"grossly under paid" what the coins were worth. I was shocked and offended
(and told him so). I asked him to name a single coin that we "grossly under
paid" her on. He tells me that according to the "guide" the 1921's were
worth "hundreds" of dollars and the 1922 dollars were worth "upwards of
$40,000"! And we "stole" them for $11-$12 each.

I replied in shock, "What on earth "guide" are you looking at?" He's looking
at the Redbook, far right column on the 1922 High Relief PF 65 Peace dollar.
And he looking at 1921 Peace dollar rather than the 1921 Morgan dollar. I
really unloaded on this guy (not my nature) for about 10 minutes. I gave
him some specifics about the 1922 Peace High Relief dollar (like a PCGS pop.
of about 5), the difference between a 1921 Morgan and Peace dollar. I
invited him to call ANY dealer in the country and ask what they pay for
common date Peace & Morgan dollars. I really blasted this idiot. Told him
if he really had the best interest of his client at stake he should have
them come in and see us, and we'd see what we could do.

A couple of hours later the lady and her son come in. The lady is visible
upset and shaking. I told her I would give her her $500+/- face of silver
and her 56 Dollars back if she felt so strong about it. I also told her
that they would not be the exact coins because they all got dumped into
buckets with other coins. That was not acceptable to them. They are
convinced that they had something like 20, 1922 High Relief 1922 Peace
dollars, and that we are stealing them. No amount of explaining could
convince them how unlikely it was that they had ONE, much less 20 of the
coins.

They stormed out mad. I fully expect to be sued on this.

Even though paperwork is not any real insurance and a royal pain in the
arse, compiling a detailed bill of sale with a follow-up explanation of
each item or grouping of items so listed is always a good idea. A nice
little paragraph at the bottom of the list stating that each item was
explained and that the seller agrees then adds insurance.

To then anticipate remorse and considering the possibility that a mind
change within three business days might have some remote validity in
some states in our fair union, the lot gets stowed away on its own shelf
in the shop until the three days expire - is an idea that unfortunately
now has occurred to you.

Unfortunately, in our litigious society where someone else is always to
blame, documentation is always a good idea - especially when dealing
with little old lady's their estates and their progeny/heirs.

Back when you might have thought I was just being difficult for no
apparent reason with the old man and the auction saga after you
volunteered your apparent giddiness over your good fortune- the bottom
line could always have been or be that you failed to adequately outline
the options available for a maximum return in the best interests of your
client - from the lips of an admittedly more competent attorney with an
outraged family member who is willing to swear that his dear old pappy's
collection you "took" contained 50 first year gem St. Gaudens.

Now, before everyone chimes in about a dealer having no real obligation
to do any of the above and conjecture about what will happen in court -
when one goes to court, everyone loses, except the attorneys mostly, and
reputations that are gained over years of being such a nice, fair,
handshake guy are tarnished overnight or become questionable no matter
what people may say to your face.

It is repulsive to me now to have to extend my hand based upon my
reputation in business while holding papers in my other hand that
seemingly negate the "good faith" of the handshake. Older gents will
tell you that good fences make for good neighbors - but I do understand
the repulsiveness of the idea.

Sorry to hear of your woes - your greatest gian at this point is to
learn from them.

--
JMark

On Fri, 19 May 2006 13:40:00 GMT, Wes Chormicle wrote:

That was not acceptable to them. They are
convinced that they had something like 20, 1922 High Relief 1922 Peace
dollars, and that we are stealing them. No amount of explaining could
convince them how unlikely it was that they had ONE, much less 20 of the
coins.

They stormed out mad. I fully expect to be sued on this.

Sheesh. Perhaps your frequent "guess what walked into my shop today"
posts, and the fact that this non-collection didn't warrant one, is
something you can use in your defense, should you need it? You've
always been great about posting your finds, and those of us who have
been here for some time know that you take joy in sharing your finds
with us.

Do you make an inventory when you buy an accumulation of coins like
this, or is it just itemized as "$500 face value junk silver"? Anyone
can sue you over anything. What a pain in the ass.

Wes Chormicle wrote:

A couple of hours later the lady and her son come in. The lady is visible
upset and shaking. I told her I would give her her $500+/- face of silver
and her 56 Dollars back if she felt so strong about it. I also told her
that they would not be the exact coins because they all got dumped into
buckets with other coins. That was not acceptable to them. They are
convinced that they had something like 20, 1922 High Relief 1922 Peace
dollars, and that we are stealing them. No amount of explaining could
convince them how unlikely it was that they had ONE, much less 20 of the
coins.

They stormed out mad. I fully expect to be sued on this.

Yes. People can really be idiots. Even worse, if it does go to trial,
there will probably be an attorney and "expert witnesses" who can
convince 12 more idiots to side with them.