All banknotes to have a 2D barcode?

Virgils Ghost wrote:
"Peter Hucker" wrote in message newsp.tct51m1mwabk2w@blue...

A dollar to protect a 2 dollar note?

You can already buy RFID tags far cheaper than that, especially when they
wouldn't need 512kb of storage. A few cents to protect a 500 euro note isn't
such a bad deal, the UK already applies holograms.
Part of the original post was that a 2D barcode could be scanned by
anyone with a camera, so I am wondering about RFID v barcode. An
advantage of barcodes is that degradation should be obvious. Also
couldn't you destroy the RFID tag by frying it with e.g. high voltage.
Does a technical failure of the tag invalidate the note?

Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
(scanning fibres). However you could make up a unique barcode pattern,
and with 500 characters with a 37 character character set you have
1.26e+784 combinations, assumming a trillion notes in circulation, you
have a one in 1.26e+772 chance of guessing a note correctly. However
if quantum computers come along you may need to stop using
public/private keys, if they can try all combinations and find the
valid ones. (redundancy of data not taken into account.)

"Dave" wrote in message

Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
(scanning fibres). However you could make up a unique barcode pattern,
and with 500 characters with a 37 character character set you have
1.26e+784 combinations, assumming a trillion notes in circulation, you
have a one in 1.26e+772 chance of guessing a note correctly. However
if quantum computers come along you may need to stop using
public/private keys, if they can try all combinations and find the
valid ones. (redundancy of data not taken into account.)

Notes already include such patterns, though obviously not unique,

scanners and digital photocopiers now have software that detects this
'watermark' and refuses to


http://www.networkworld.com/columnis...9backspin.html

"Virgils Ghost" wrote in message
.. .

"Dave" wrote in message

Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
(scanning fibres). However you could make up a unique barcode pattern,
and with 500 characters with a 37 character character set you have
1.26e+784 combinations, assumming a trillion notes in circulation, you
have a one in 1.26e+772 chance of guessing a note correctly. However
if quantum computers come along you may need to stop using
public/private keys, if they can try all combinations and find the
valid ones. (redundancy of data not taken into account.)

Notes already include such patterns, though obviously not unique,

scanners and digital photocopiers now have software that detects this
'watermark' and refuses to

.... scan :-

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...232480,00.html

"The software relies on features built into leading currencies. Latest
banknotes contain a pattern of five tiny circles. On the £20 note, they're
disguised as a musical notation, on the euro they appear in a constellation
of stars; on the new $20 note, the pattern is hidden in the zeros of a
background pattern. Imaging software or devices detect the pattern and
refuse to deal with the image."

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 22:22:01 +0100, Virgils Ghost wrote:


"Virgils Ghost" wrote in message
.. .

"Dave" wrote in message

Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
(scanning fibres). However you could make up a unique barcode pattern,
and with 500 characters with a 37 character character set you have
1.26e+784 combinations, assumming a trillion notes in circulation, you
have a one in 1.26e+772 chance of guessing a note correctly. However
if quantum computers come along you may need to stop using
public/private keys, if they can try all combinations and find the
valid ones. (redundancy of data not taken into account.)

Notes already include such patterns, though obviously not unique,

scanners and digital photocopiers now have software that detects this
'watermark' and refuses to

... scan :-

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...232480,00.html

"The software relies on features built into leading currencies. Latest
banknotes contain a pattern of five tiny circles. On the £20 note, they're
disguised as a musical notation, on the euro they appear in a constellation
of stars; on the new $20 note, the pattern is hidden in the zeros of a
background pattern. Imaging software or devices detect the pattern and
refuse to deal with the image."

One of the reasons not to use Adobe software.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

Confuscious say: "If you park, don't drink, accidents cause people."

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 20:32:29 +0100, Dave wrote:


Virgils Ghost wrote:
"Peter Hucker" wrote in message newsp.tct51m1mwabk2w@blue...

A dollar to protect a 2 dollar note?

You can already buy RFID tags far cheaper than that, especially when they
wouldn't need 512kb of storage. A few cents to protect a 500 euro note isn't
such a bad deal, the UK already applies holograms.
Part of the original post was that a 2D barcode could be scanned by
anyone with a camera, so I am wondering about RFID v barcode. An
advantage of barcodes is that degradation should be obvious. Also
couldn't you destroy the RFID tag by frying it with e.g. high voltage.
Does a technical failure of the tag invalidate the note?

Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
(scanning fibres). However you could make up a unique barcode pattern,
and with 500 characters with a 37 character character set you have
1.26e+784 combinations, assumming a trillion notes in circulation, you
have a one in 1.26e+772 chance of guessing a note correctly. However
if quantum computers come along you may need to stop using
public/private keys, if they can try all combinations and find the
valid ones. (redundancy of data not taken into account.)

How about microwaving it?

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

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Virgils Ghost wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message

Also see a previous post about a definitive solution to note validation
(scanning fibres).

Notes already include such patterns, though obviously not unique,

scanners and digital photocopiers now have software that detects this
'watermark' and refuses to


http://www.networkworld.com/columnis...9backspin.html

This is what I was on about:
http://www.boston.com/news/science/a...rint_of_paper/

In article ews.net "Miss L. Toe" writes:
"Dik T. Winter" wrote in message
...
....
Yes, the original owner was no longer legitimate owner. On the other
hand, his insurance would have paid him for the stolen bicycle.

What if he decided not to have insurance ?

Tough luck. He might try to get recompense from the thief, or from the
shop that sold his bicycle.

(I did hear a rumour once that bicycle theft rings in Amsterdam were
financed by the new bicycle retailers).

Most are stolen by junks that sell them again.

(I also heard a rumour that car radio theft rings in the UK were financed by
car radio shops).

Also those are mostly stolen by junks in the Netherlands. But theft of
those are in the decline as modern radio's are integrated in the
dashboard.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

"note.boy" wrote in message
...

"bri" wrote in message
.net...

"GB" wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

As an interim step to total electronicization of money I believe that
2D barcodes on banknotes should uniquely sign the note, so any
imaging
network device could tell if the bit of paper was a duplicate, and
help
tracking. A non-networked device should be able to check the
signature, but not do real-time tracking. If your money was stolen
you
should be able to receive your stolen property when it was handed
into
a bank. (Or is ownership of banknotes lost upon theft? - uk.legal)


In principle, there is nothing to stop you writing down the serial nos
of
all your bank notes in case they are stolen. Nobody does, though.
Whilst
bar codes would make it easier, I am sure that OCR technology can
easily
cope with reading existing serial nos.

There are good reasons for not confiscating money from an innocent end
user
simply because the serial no is on a list of stolen notes. There are
still
nearly 30 million pounds of stolen notes missing from the big robbery
in
Essex a few months go, and that's just one robbery. The grand total
must
be
much higher. Commerce would grind to a halt if everybody had to check
each
note against a database of stolen ones.

OCR technology is a joke. There's absolutely no_way a circulated note of
any
kind could ever be OCR'd or even scanned in by a bar code reader.



If it's possible to have a camera read a car number plate that may be
travelling at 100 mph I find it difficult to accept that a static note
would
be difficult to read. Billy

It won't be static--it'll be moving so fast you can't even hardly see it wiz
thru the machine. Banks and the feds will have to do that since there's many
billions of notes to keep track of that way.
I do scanning for a living--we always get nastied-up bar codes and once they
get even one tiny mark across those or they get worn just a tiny bit it
won't read them in a scanner or it mis-reads it. We also have spent many
thousands of dollars on OCR software of all kinds and there's just tons and
tons of stuff out there that you can't OCR due to the documents being in
such poor condition. We tried OCR on some bar codes many times. It'll work
for the first 50 or so then for some unknown reason it won't read them.
Doesn't matter if they're brand new or worn down. The problem I think is
that you need a super fast and super large cache that can keep up--at this
time there isn't such a beast except maybe at NORAD or something like that
;-)

"Peter Hucker" wrote in message newsp.tcukuvlzwabk2w@blue...
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:43:39 +0100, Cynic wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:28:25 GMT, "Virgils Ghost" wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message

Apparently PDF417 can store 500 characters per square inch (I'm not an
expert in this area, though)

And when it's tattered and ripped?

PDF417 uses Solomon Reed error correction of flexible size, so a few
damaged bits would be OK. Not that I see much point in the exercise
unless we all have online readers that are able to detect stolen or
duplicate bar codes at the point we receive the money.

Perhaps the shops would. I've seen loads (ok ONE) shop with a UV banknote
tester.

As have I. A chippy actually.

It incorrectly read a real £20 note as counterfeit because it had been
washed.

What do modern detergents contain?

U/V sensitive ingredients.

What do fake note testers check for? The same thing.

All in all useless.

"Dik T. Winter" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net
"Miss L. Toe" writes:
"Dik T. Winter" wrote in message
...
...
Yes, the original owner was no longer legitimate owner. On the other
hand, his insurance would have paid him for the stolen bicycle.

What if he decided not to have insurance ?

Tough luck. He might try to get recompense from the thief, or from the
shop that sold his bicycle.


Why should the shop be any more liable than the customer ?

(I did hear a rumour once that bicycle theft rings in Amsterdam were
financed by the new bicycle retailers).

Most are stolen by junks that sell them again.


But who do they sell them to ?