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#31
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
On Sat, 19 May 2007 11:31:09 -0400, "Sibirskmoneta"
wrote: When you think of it from the perspective of a religious individual such as Theodore Roosevelt it also panders of an indignity to the believed in diety when you put his name on a piece of "evil" money. I would say for it to continue, then we must then put Yahweh, and Allah and Krishna, and Buddha, and Voodoo on the $ too. Or maybe it would be easier to just remove any reference to religion and Masonism - ala the $1 bill reverse. This is an example of a very thoughtful response, unlike the gibberish of Dale Hallmark, calling people names without having an iota of understanding about the issue under discussion. Theodore Roosevelt had an interesting take on IGWT. He was a believer but believed that the name of god, or God, shouldn't be on things used in places like brothels and saloons, along with shops and banks. That perspective doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Many believers want to convert others into believing as they do, want to eradicate "evil," so why not put God's name in "evil" places to help these people see the good? I don't believe this myself, just find Roosevelt's position as a believer difficult to reconcile. About Yahweh and Allah and such, another good point. There are many facets of deity, many ways of interpreting it. Many Christians believe that only theirs is the correct way, and some believe that those who don't believe in the exact same way they do will suffer after they die (burn in hell). This type of extreme intolerance has led to much persecution, killing, and other evil throughout history. Other religions have been intolerant as well, but some in general are characterized by tolerance, Hinduism most notably, recognizing as it does that there may be one summit (God) but there are many pathways to it. Even here though there are lots of nuances, with many Hindus practicing a more polytheistic version, and Hinduism comes with the baggage of the caste system and its injustices, that people living in misery deserve it because of their actions in previous lives (though this has been softened in recent years). My take on IGWT is somewhat akin to the Founding Fathers of the United States. I'm a firm believer in the wisdom of separating national affairs from religious affairs given that religious impulses can manifest in many legitimate, authentic ways (and many illegitimate, evil ways). But a core reality, for me, is that one of the cornerstones of Western civilization is the primacy of reason, and much (not all) religion subjugates reason in the name of faith. The current U.S. administration in power shows the lunacy of basing national and international affairs on faith, on belief despite evidence, on believing what you believe because you believe it, not even wanting to know in many cases what's happening from the perspective of those who don't share your perspective. -- Email: (delete "remove this") Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
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#32
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
On Sat, 19 May 2007 09:07:38 -0500, "Dale Hallmark"
dalehall"AT"cableone.net wrote: I started to answer your statements but there is a lot of text that didn't quite address accurately some of the statements I made. Since you can't seem to understand exactly what I posted, I see no gain in attempting to get you to understand. I have seen others attempt that for weeks on end and I have no desire to repeat a process that is doomed to failure. And like I said, I don't enough care about the issue to continue. I would like to say bite me but that has been done so I won't. Another thoughtful response! This must be contagious. First you take *six* paragraphs to say you don't care about this issue (right), calling people who do care "moronic." Then you respond yet again saying how you don't care (right). There are lots of interesting issues brought up by IGWT, none of which you addressed, lots of issues involving government, politics, and religion, not the goofy ignorance you spouted about democracy and religion. It's good though that you've decided not to say any more. Yet you have decided to say more, continuing your ignorance with the statement only group who "should" be upset with IGWT are atheists. Are you not able read? What about deists, polytheists, and agnostics, as I mentioned? To them, IGWT makes no sense either. To a deist, saying in god we trust make no more sense than saying in rocks we trust or in molecules we trust. To a polytheist, IGWT doesn't make sense because you're not specifying which god. To an agnostic, whether or not deity exists is incapable of being known so it's illogical to profess trust in it. -- Email: (delete "remove this") Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
#33
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
On Sat, 19 May 2007 07:42:36 -0400, "Sibirskmoneta"
wrote: I think it should be changed, to "In Gold We Trust" ! Funny! But, alas, not any more. Maybe "In Gold We Should Trust." Or not. g It's interesting that among the first U.S. coins, the sentiment exactly opposite of "In God We Trust" was included as a motto. The 1792 half disme includes, "Liberty: Parent of Science and Industry" or more precisely, "Liberty Parent of Science & Indus." Our Founding Fathers, as many people do today, recognized well that religion has an inimical history of opposing science, opposing the knowledge of reality that science has brought forth and the insights into human character and the workings of the world. This is not to say that all religious people though history have supporting the executions of "heretics" whose discoveries about nature and the universe have contradicted the teachings of religious leaders. -- Email: (delete "remove this") Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
#34
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
On Fri, 18 May 2007 22:42:53 -0500, "PC"
wrote: "Anka" wrote in message oups.com... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . ." No state religion was established. So what's your beef? My beef is with the cuckoos who somehow think if this was removed that it will herald the end of mankind as we know it. Or some such nonsense. Anka ----- weary of those who don't *get* it Indeed. They are the same people who think marriage means something only if you can exclude certain groups from partaking in it! Reclining Buddha The Original Couch Potato! |
#35
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message Theodore Roosevelt had an interesting take on IGWT. He was a believer but believed that the name of god, or God, shouldn't be on things used in places like brothels and saloons, along with shops and banks. That perspective doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Many believers want to convert others into believing as they do, want to eradicate "evil," so why not put God's name in "evil" places to help these people see the good? I don't believe this myself, just find Roosevelt's position as a believer difficult to reconcile. And then there were the people of which Grigory Rasputin was one, that believed the body was only cleansed of sin by performing said sin. I just don't believe that dieties belong on money period, that includes these stupid presidents too. Frankly it all comes down to cult of personality worship. I still rest my case, there should be one motto on money "In Gold We Trust"! |
#36
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message It's interesting that among the first U.S. coins, the sentiment exactly opposite of "In God We Trust" was included as a motto. The 1792 half disme includes, "Liberty: Parent of Science and Industry" or more precisely, "Liberty Parent of Science & Indus." Our Founding Fathers, as many people do today, recognized well that religion has an inimical history of opposing science, opposing the knowledge of reality that science has brought forth and the insights into human character and the workings of the world. This is not to say that all religious people though history have supporting the executions of "heretics" whose discoveries about nature and the universe have contradicted the teachings of religious leaders. -- Religion has a unique position in that it by itself is the root cause of more human suffering and conflict than any other factor in human existence, much more so than hunger, war, disease etc. Think about what the cause of more conflict and persecution of others is, more often than not it is religion. Microcosm of it all is Iraq, where you have different type of Muslims slaughtering each other for Allah. Then Northern Ireland, where Christians slaughter each other, until recently, but probably again soon in the name of you guessed it - religion. If religion were strictly a personal matter and a practice for the self instead of having to be heaped on everybody around one, then the world would be a better place. |
#37
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Sibirskmoneta" wrote in message ... "Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message It's interesting that among the first U.S. coins, the sentiment exactly opposite of "In God We Trust" was included as a motto. The 1792 half disme includes, "Liberty: Parent of Science and Industry" or more precisely, "Liberty Parent of Science & Indus." Our Founding Fathers, as many people do today, recognized well that religion has an inimical history of opposing science, opposing the knowledge of reality that science has brought forth and the insights into human character and the workings of the world. This is not to say that all religious people though history have supporting the executions of "heretics" whose discoveries about nature and the universe have contradicted the teachings of religious leaders. -- Religion has a unique position in that it by itself is the root cause of more human suffering and conflict than any other factor in human existence, much more so than hunger, war, disease etc. Think about what the cause of more conflict and persecution of others is, more often than not it is religion. Microcosm of it all is Iraq, where you have different type of Muslims slaughtering each other for Allah. Then Northern Ireland, where Christians slaughter each other, until recently, but probably again soon in the name of you guessed it - religion. If religion were strictly a personal matter and a practice for the self instead of having to be heaped on everybody around one, then the world would be a better place. Every day I thank God that I'm an atheist. Billy |
#38
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
On Sat, 19 May 2007 15:13:01 -0400, "Sibirskmoneta"
wrote: Religion has a unique position in that it by itself is the root cause of more human suffering and conflict than any other factor in human existence, This is harsh. But I agree with it. Religion has done much good. But it has done far more evil, caused far more suffering and death, than any other institution ever invented by humankind. It's not religion in itself that does this. It's how it's used by people, or abused. Much has to do with dogmatism (fixed ideas not easily amendable to change), irrationality (faith despite evidence), and intolerance (distrust or hatred toward those who don't believe as you do) that religion inspires. All these qualities in people can exist independent of religion. But because of religion's nature, its basis on a power not perceptible to the senses, these qualities coalesce more around religion than any other human institution. It's not "Money is the source of all evil." It's not "Religion is the source of all evil." It's "Religion is the source of much evil." On the other hand, there many good religious people out there, people whose lives are based on doing good, just as there are beneficent ways of interpreting deity. -- Email: (delete "remove this") Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
#39
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message It's not "Money is the source of all evil." It's not "Religion is the source of all evil." It's "Religion is the source of much evil." On the other hand, there many good religious people out there, people whose lives are based on doing good, just as there are beneficent ways of interpreting deity. I agree that religion has done good, but it is overlooked because of the bad that people have used religion as a basis for performing whatever they may to inflict misery that religion has done more for human degradation than any other factor. And in reference to Note.boy's response, I thank god that I have become a non-believer in any religion also. It reflects no non-tolerance of others beliefs, only that they should tolerate my right not to believe. In other words don't come knocking on my door with the BofM or salvation for my soul. And please take god off the money. |
#40
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Anka" wrote in message
ups.com... On May 18, 7:23?am, Bill Dunkenfield wrote: 1908 : Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust" In a move that seemingly flew in the face of America's founding belief in the separation of church and state, Congress passed legislation on this day in 1908 that made the maxim "In God We Trust" an obligatory element of certain coins. The motto dates back to the early 1860s, when the Civil War stirred religious feelings throughout the nation. America's heightened piety manifested itself in many places, including the treasury department, which received countless letters requesting that the nation's coins pay some form of tribute to God. Concerned citizens and religious leaders found a fast friend in Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase, who readily agreed that the "trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins." James Pollock, director of the U.S. Mint at Philadelphia, was charged with devising a suitable motto. After some key revisions from Chase, Pollock decided upon the now-familiar "In God We Trust." http://www.history.com/tdih.do?actio...tegory&id=5869 JAM "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . ." No state religion was established. So what's your beef? As an atheist, I find it offensive. If I believed in a pantheistic religion, I would probably find it silly and possibly offensive. If I believed in a monotheistic religion I would probably find it petty, probably blasphemous, and possibly offsensive. Any way I look at it, it presupposes a viewpoint which whether you agree with it or not does not need to be expressed on the coinage of a nation which values liberty. Moreover, while one could argue in great detail about what the founding fathers meant, I find the statement "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" to be more sweeping than simply prohibiting the establishment by congress of a state religion. IF |
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