Counterfeit scam (Abdera)

Anybody wanting to see an $760 (and rising) counterfeit scam in the
works, check out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3919140085

This is a "Bulgarian School" forgery of an Abdera stater. This forgery
is an exact die match and with the same fake toning of a forgery I
earlier acquired (as a forgery), studied in person, and passed it on
in a trade to a collector who specializes in Abdera coins. I initially
thought I'd focus on Abdera as one of my areas but instead have
focused on other areas. That forgery is he

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Abdera.jpg

These are skillfully rendered forgeries, likely pressed, not cast,
with convincingly aged flans.

Others, collectors as well as dealers, have discussed this forgery
online, in one or two of the email discussion lists, and sent email to
the seller. His persisting with this auction is telling, though in
fairness another possibility is that the seller, who has a good
feedback record, hasn't yet seen these emails, perhaps being away over
the past three days. But if things continue as they have, someone is
going to lose some serious money.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Can you give more detail to am absolute newbie as to how you can tell its a
fogery?

Kind regards,
Mame

"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
Anybody wanting to see an $760 (and rising) counterfeit scam in the
works, check out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3919140085

This is a "Bulgarian School" forgery of an Abdera stater. This forgery
is an exact die match and with the same fake toning of a forgery I
earlier acquired (as a forgery), studied in person, and passed it on
in a trade to a collector who specializes in Abdera coins. I initially
thought I'd focus on Abdera as one of my areas but instead have
focused on other areas. That forgery is he

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Abdera.jpg

These are skillfully rendered forgeries, likely pressed, not cast,
with convincingly aged flans.

Others, collectors as well as dealers, have discussed this forgery
online, in one or two of the email discussion lists, and sent email to
the seller. His persisting with this auction is telling, though in
fairness another possibility is that the seller, who has a good
feedback record, hasn't yet seen these emails, perhaps being away over
the past three days. But if things continue as they have, someone is
going to lose some serious money.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Reid Goldsborough wrote:

Anybody wanting to see an $760 (and rising) counterfeit scam in the
works, check out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3919140085

This is a "Bulgarian School" forgery of an Abdera stater. This forgery
is an exact die match and with the same fake toning of a forgery I
earlier acquired (as a forgery), studied in person, and passed it on
in a trade to a collector who specializes in Abdera coins. I initially
thought I'd focus on Abdera as one of my areas but instead have
focused on other areas. That forgery is he

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Abdera.jpg

I am not convinced from the images presented that these two items *are*
the exact die matches you say they are.

Have a look at the ground beneath the griffin in both examples. The coin
for auction sees the ground curve downwards towards the the forelegs.
The one displayed on cointalk stops abruptly at the hind feet.

The result of a `partially filled die'? (the one on coin talk that is)
Always a possibility, but I would doubt it.

I really don't know enough about Abdera coins to comment further. All I
know is that i'm far from convinced that these coins have been struck
from the same dies and I would be VERY hesitant about levelling any
accusations against the seller without much closer examination.

Uh, I am the high bidder on this coin ... I kind of have an interest in this
one ...

--k


"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
Anybody wanting to see an $760 (and rising) counterfeit scam in the
works, check out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3919140085

This is a "Bulgarian School" forgery of an Abdera stater. This forgery
is an exact die match and with the same fake toning of a forgery I
earlier acquired (as a forgery), studied in person, and passed it on
in a trade to a collector who specializes in Abdera coins. I initially
thought I'd focus on Abdera as one of my areas but instead have
focused on other areas. That forgery is he

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Abdera.jpg

These are skillfully rendered forgeries, likely pressed, not cast,
with convincingly aged flans.

Others, collectors as well as dealers, have discussed this forgery
online, in one or two of the email discussion lists, and sent email to
the seller. His persisting with this auction is telling, though in
fairness another possibility is that the seller, who has a good
feedback record, hasn't yet seen these emails, perhaps being away over
the past three days. But if things continue as they have, someone is
going to lose some serious money.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

In article ,
"Keith Fletcher" , quoting Reid, wrote:

Anybody wanting to see an $760 (and rising) counterfeit scam in the
works, check out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3919140085

This forgery
is an exact die match and with the same fake toning of a forgery I
earlier acquired (as a forgery), studied in person, and passed it on
in a trade to a collector who specializes in Abdera coins....That forgery is he

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Abdera.jpg

But the two coins don't look the same to me. The tip of the left wing
(or whatever it is) of the beast is in a different position relative to
the beast's beak. Also the curve of the wing's top is different. I see
spacing differences bewteen elements on the other side of the coin as
well.

Or am I looking at the wrong stuff (entirely possible, since I know
nothing about the subject - I just know what I see)?

Scot Kamins
--
"Speak your truth, even as your voice quakes."

Scot wrote:

"But the two coins don't look the same to me. The tip of the left wing (or
whatever it is) of the beast is in a different position relative to the beast's
beak. Also the curve of the wing's top is different. I see spacing differences
bewteen elements on the other side of the coin as well."


I agree with you, Scot. To me, they are not exact die matches.



Anka

Ankaaz spoke thusly...
Scot wrote:

"But the two coins don't look the same to me. The tip of the left wing (or
whatever it is) of the beast is in a different position relative to the beast's
beak. Also the curve of the wing's top is different. I see spacing differences
bewteen elements on the other side of the coin as well."


I agree with you, Scot. To me, they are not exact die matches.

The fake doesn't look much like the auction to me but I don't know the
coins. Anyone have a picture of an authentic one that I could compare
the Ebay auction to?

--
Stujoe

"Ian" wrote in message
...
Reid Goldsborough wrote:

Anybody wanting to see an $760 (and rising) counterfeit scam in the
works, check out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3919140085

That forgery is he

http://rg.cointalk.org/misc/Abdera.jpg


Not black/white, IMHO.

I've just posted, on abpn, an animation of the two coins superimposed.
It flashes between the two to highlight the differences.

If you don't get abpn, its also at: http://mendosus.com/abderae.html

It seems the O.P. may be right - the coins could well have been struck from the same
dies - with some reservations.

What of the differences, then?

* my image alignment isn't perfect - in position and proportion - 'though its pretty
dam' close!

* the two photos are taken with different lighting angles. This accounts for a
helluva lot of the differences. Shadows are tricky items.

* Details which differ between the dies could well be from a filled die, or a
reworked die.

* The size of the punch (square) on the rev. seems at first to be way off, but I feel
that is a function of lighting.

* There is an apparent elongation between the two (most obvious on the grif's head,
and Silenus' chest/breast muscles.) I tried to compensate for this, but then the
images didn't align as well.

To me, the shape/proportion of the grif's beaks is the most telling difference.


As Scot said, I'd like to see a genuine.
I'd like to see the known forgery marked as such, too, but that's not likely.

--
Jeff R.

In , on 07/05/2004
at 12:31 AM, "Keith Fletcher" said:

Uh, I am the high bidder on this coin ... I kind of have an interest in
this one ...

Wasn't shipping $29 or some such? Yikes! Make sure you take that into
account, 'cause that would pretty much remove my desire for the beast.

Nick

In , on 07/05/2004
at 12:31 AM, "Keith Fletcher" said:

Uh, I am the high bidder on this coin ... I kind of have an interest in
this one ...

Ooops. Nevermind. That was the Chinese "ancient" bust dollar where
shipping was $29.

Nick