What is a cameo finish?
 

Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?

What is a cameo finish?
 

"Michael" wrote in message
ups.com...
Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?


If you can picture a piece of cameo jewelry, the portrait usually stands out as
light-toned in contrast to its darker background. On a cameo coin, the portrait
is typically matte-finished and frosty looking in contrast to its shiny,
polished background. This cameo feature is found most often on proof struck
coins, especially those US proofs produced in the past 20 years or so. "Cameo"
is not a grade, per se, but is an attractive feature that can increase the value
of a coin.

Bruce

What is a cameo finish?
 

Michael wrote:
Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?


http://www.pcgs.com/lingo.chtml?Letter=C

What is a cameo finish?
 

AlexBivin wrote:

As Bruce has already mentioned, the CAM of DCAM/UCAM designations are
usually found on proof coins. The only exception to this rule that I
have thus far found, is in SMS coinage from 1965-67......

You are forgetting early Morgan dollars which can exhibit quite heavy
cameo finishes.

What is a cameo finish?
 

Phil DeMayo wrote:
AlexBivin wrote:

As Bruce has already mentioned, the CAM of DCAM/UCAM designations are
usually found on proof coins. The only exception to this rule that I
have thus far found, is in SMS coinage from 1965-67......

You are forgetting early Morgan dollars which can exhibit quite heavy
cameo finishes.

Ah yes, how could I forget! I am sure there are others I have
overlooked as well. The Morgans in question are labeled as DMPL (deep
mirror proof like), just for those new to collecting and not familiar
with cameo contrast. Here is a question, as stated before, DCAM, CAM
and DMPL aren't grades per say, so they can be applied to any coin that
exhibits that particular propery (in theory). So has anyone ever seen
other coins (other than Morgans) designated DMPL?

What is a cameo finish?
 

"AlexBivin" wrote in message
ups.com...

Phil DeMayo wrote:
AlexBivin wrote:

As Bruce has already mentioned, the CAM of DCAM/UCAM designations are
usually found on proof coins. The only exception to this rule that I
have thus far found, is in SMS coinage from 1965-67......

You are forgetting early Morgan dollars which can exhibit quite heavy
cameo finishes.

Ah yes, how could I forget! I am sure there are others I have
overlooked as well. The Morgans in question are labeled as DMPL (deep
mirror proof like), just for those new to collecting and not familiar
with cameo contrast. Here is a question, as stated before, DCAM, CAM
and DMPL aren't grades per say, so they can be applied to any coin that
exhibits that particular propery (in theory). So has anyone ever seen
other coins (other than Morgans) designated DMPL?

I've seen several Columbian Commemorative Half dollars designated PL and
possessing a light cameo contrast.

John

Visit the RCCers favorite coins web page
http://mysite.verizon.net/jcarney44/coins/rccers.html

What is a cameo finish?
 

So essentially all proofs are cameos? A proof fits the description.
Or is it some rare phenomenon that happens to proof coins.


Bruce Remick wrote:
"Michael" wrote in message
ups.com...
Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?


If you can picture a piece of cameo jewelry, the portrait usually stands out as
light-toned in contrast to its darker background. On a cameo coin, the portrait
is typically matte-finished and frosty looking in contrast to its shiny,
polished background. This cameo feature is found most often on proof struck
coins, especially those US proofs produced in the past 20 years or so. "Cameo"
is not a grade, per se, but is an attractive feature that can increase the value
of a coin.

Bruce

What is a cameo finish?
 

Thanks!! VERY helpful. One could say many Franklin Mint medals were
cameo because the contrast was there and the volumes were not large
enough to cause any noticeable die wear.

AlexBivin wrote:
Michael wrote:
Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?

Hi Michael,
As Bruce has already mentioned, the CAM of DCAM/UCAM designations are
usually found on proof coins. The only exception to this rule that I
have thus far found, is in SMS coinage from 1965-67. The description of
a cameo is also well defined by Bruce as well. This effect comes about
from the way the mint prepares the dies. When you look at a deep cameo
(I will explain the difference between deep cameo and cameo in a bit)
coin, you are looking at a coin exactly the way the engraver had
imagined it. All raised portions of the die are etched, so that when
they are struck, it leaves that frosty white appearence. However, as
planchets are struck from that die the etching will fade, making the
cameo receed a bit more with every strike until you are left with a
completely brilliant coin. This is where the DCAM and CAM standards
come in. As the die wears, the cameo is less pronounced, so a lower
level of cameo is recognized by the grading services.
I little long winded, but I hope it helps answer the question! Feel
free to ask if anything is unclear!

Alex

What is a cameo finish?
 

Michael wrote:
Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?

Just to add a point: what has been said is correct for MODERN coins.
Also, as noted many Morgan Dollars have cameo and deep cameo features.
The Mint was forced to strike millions of these useless coins and they
went through hundreds of dies. New dies under adequate pressure
created the "cameo" appearance of a proof-like coin, though, of course,
the coins were NOT proofs.

Proofs -- by definition -- are created from multiple strikes with
polished dies on specially prepared planchets. Proofs probably go back
no farther than the late 1600s as rarities. As we would recognize
them, they are identifiable from records of the early 1800s and
forward.

The "matte proof" finish of the early 20th century, invented in France,
and briefly popular here, never has a cameo effect, by its very nature.

(If you go to the ANA website, www.money.org, and click on the dropdown
for Communications, you can select Numismatist, the monthly magazine.
In the 2005 Archives, the May issue has a cover story that I wrote
about Proof Double Eagles.)

Mike M.

What is a cameo finish?
 

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
So essentially all proofs are cameos? A proof fits the description.
Or is it some rare phenomenon that happens to proof coins.


Bruce Remick wrote:
"Michael" wrote in message
ups.com...
Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?


If you can picture a piece of cameo jewelry, the portrait usually stands
out as
light-toned in contrast to its darker background. On a cameo coin, the
portrait
is typically matte-finished and frosty looking in contrast to its shiny,
polished background. This cameo feature is found most often on proof
struck
coins, especially those US proofs produced in the past 20 years or so.
"Cameo"
is not a grade, per se, but is an attractive feature that can increase
the value
of a coin.

Bruce


If the die used to strike a proof coin has the portrait area sandblasted
that results in a cameo, the portrait is frosted and the fields are mirror.
Billy

What is a cameo finish?
 

"Michael" wrote in message
oups.com...
So essentially all proofs are cameos? A proof fits the description.
Or is it some rare phenomenon that happens to proof coins.



AlexBivin described the cameo effect pretty well here, along with what causes
it. All proofs are not cameos. Most pre-1980 US proof coins are not. All
coins in recent US proof sets have been produced to intentionally incorporate
the cameo feature, except for (IIRC) the proof silver and gold bullion coins.
As has also been mentioned, some older BU circulation strikes can have a cameo
appearance, and these are highly sought after by some collectors due to their
scarcity. Morgan silver dollars come to mind here. If you'll check out some
major auction catalogs, you'll often see a few choice coins from the 1800's that
display a cameo effect.

Bruce

What is a cameo finish?
 

Aren't Matte Proofs used all the time here? The UNC versions of all
Commems are essentially Matte Proofs. The UNC version of the 1986
Liberty Half Dollar was a true mint quality specimen. But the UNC
versions of the recent Franklin Dollars are no doubt matte proofs.


Mike Marotta wrote:
Michael wrote:
Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?

Just to add a point: what has been said is correct for MODERN coins.
Also, as noted many Morgan Dollars have cameo and deep cameo features.
The Mint was forced to strike millions of these useless coins and they
went through hundreds of dies. New dies under adequate pressure
created the "cameo" appearance of a proof-like coin, though, of course,
the coins were NOT proofs.

Proofs -- by definition -- are created from multiple strikes with
polished dies on specially prepared planchets. Proofs probably go back
no farther than the late 1600s as rarities. As we would recognize
them, they are identifiable from records of the early 1800s and
forward.

The "matte proof" finish of the early 20th century, invented in France,
and briefly popular here, never has a cameo effect, by its very nature.

(If you go to the ANA website, www.money.org, and click on the dropdown
for Communications, you can select Numismatist, the monthly magazine.
In the 2005 Archives, the May issue has a cover story that I wrote
about Proof Double Eagles.)

Mike M.

What is a cameo finish?
 

Michael wrote:
Aren't Matte Proofs used all the time here? The UNC versions of all
Commems are essentially Matte Proofs.

No. By definition, a proof coin must be (MUST be)
1. struck multiple times.

2. from specially prepared dies

3. on specially prepared planchets.

It is true that there are cases where proof dies were dragooned into
business strike usage. However, it is generally true that the
diagnostics for a proof coin have little to do with the frostiness,
etc., and everything to do with the DIE diagnostics. Proof coins are
struck from proof dies. Proof dies are (generally; most often; with
exceptions) NOT the same dies as the ones used for business strikes.

(Did you read the article I wrote on Proof Gold?)

What is a cameo finish?
 

"Michael" wrote in message
ups.com...
Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?

Here is just a proof cameo--
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7...bvsmalltd8.jpg

Here is a proof deep cameo--
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4...bvsmallsb0.jpg

Here is a proof really super deep cameo. You want to find one like this--
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/546...bvsmallug5.jpg

Here is a business strike 'MS' cameo--or at least a very close to a full
cameo. The torch is a little lacking.
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3...vmediumqh1.jpg

Here is a satin finish coin with a cameo--
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/6...evsmallkt3.jpg

HTH

What is a cameo finish?
 

"bri" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Michael" wrote in message
ups.com...
Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?

Here is just a proof cameo--
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7...bvsmalltd8.jpg

Here is a proof deep cameo--
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4...bvsmallsb0.jpg

Here is a proof really super deep cameo. You want to find one like this--
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/546...bvsmallug5.jpg

Here is a business strike 'MS' cameo--or at least a very close to a full
cameo. The torch is a little lacking.
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3...vmediumqh1.jpg

Here is a satin finish coin with a cameo--
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/6...evsmallkt3.jpg

HTH

Forgot to add that both sides need to match in order for most grading
companies of respect to dish out the deep cameo designation--IOW you can't
get that if one side is just a cameo and the other is a deep cameo. And one
company might be less brutal at giving out the designation than another--you
just have to look at the coin instead of what the holder says and make your
own judgment.

What is a cameo finish?
 

The three requirments below would apply to the unc versions of modern
commems. I am under the impression that they prepare the dies the same
then sand blast them with fine granuals to give them the matte finish.
So technically it costs more to make the UNC versions that the proofs.
The UNC Marines dollars is no doubt a matte proof.

Now another possibility would be for the dies not to be prepared as
well but say 90% as good then the flaws are covered by the
sandblasting.


Mike Marotta wrote:
Michael wrote:
Aren't Matte Proofs used all the time here? The UNC versions of all
Commems are essentially Matte Proofs.

No. By definition, a proof coin must be (MUST be)
1. struck multiple times.

2. from specially prepared dies

3. on specially prepared planchets.

What is a cameo finish?
 

Michael wrote:

The three requirments below would apply to the unc versions of modern
commems.

Would they?

Do they receive multiple strikes?

Are they struck from specially prepared polished planchets like proofs?

I am under the impression that they prepare the dies the same
then sand blast them with fine granuals to give them the matte finish.
So technically it costs more to make the UNC versions that the proofs.

How so?

Proof dies are also sandblasted to achieve the cameo finish. The fields
are highly polished, the dies chromium plated to extend die life and
each die is used to strike a limited number of coins before being
retired or refinished.

Do you have any proof that all of the above (and more) is done with the
unc dies. If not, how can they "technically" cost more than proof dies?

The UNC Marines dollars is no doubt a matte proof.

Well, that 's up for debate.

The argument started in 1998 when the Mint came out with the Kennedy
Collectors Set which contained an unc RFK commemorative dollar and a
Matte Silver Kennedy Half Dollar.

Packaged side by side it was obvious to most that both coins had the
same finish and some dealers began hyping the unc RFK commem as being a
matte proof. Of course, the finish on that silver dollar was no
different than any other modern commemorative silver dollar.

You can call it anything you want (and possibly be wrong)....but the
Mint simply refers to them as "uncirculated".....not matte proof.

Now another possibility would be for the dies not to be prepared as
well but say 90% as good then the flaws are covered by the
sandblasting.


Mike Marotta wrote:
Michael wrote:
Aren't Matte Proofs used all the time here? The UNC versions of all
Commems are essentially Matte Proofs.

No. By definition, a proof coin must be (MUST be)
1. struck multiple times.

2. from specially prepared dies

3. on specially prepared planchets.

What is a cameo finish?
 

"John Carney" wrote in message
news:ihuCg.21682$qw5.17797@trnddc06...

"AlexBivin" wrote in message
ups.com...

Phil DeMayo wrote:
AlexBivin wrote:

As Bruce has already mentioned, the CAM of DCAM/UCAM designations are
usually found on proof coins. The only exception to this rule that I
have thus far found, is in SMS coinage from 1965-67......

You are forgetting early Morgan dollars which can exhibit quite heavy
cameo finishes.

Ah yes, how could I forget! I am sure there are others I have
overlooked as well. The Morgans in question are labeled as DMPL (deep
mirror proof like), just for those new to collecting and not familiar
with cameo contrast. Here is a question, as stated before, DCAM, CAM
and DMPL aren't grades per say, so they can be applied to any coin that
exhibits that particular propery (in theory). So has anyone ever seen
other coins (other than Morgans) designated DMPL?

I've seen several Columbian Commemorative Half dollars designated PL and
possessing a light cameo contrast.

John

Visit the RCCers favorite coins web page
http://mysite.verizon.net/jcarney44/coins/rccers.html

I have two quarter eagles with a bit of a cameo contrast. One is in an MS61
(or 62?) PL holder and the other is in a straight MS64 holder, but is quite
distinctly better than any other MS64 quarter eagle I have seen.

I have salivated over a few cameo proof seated halves. I'm going to get
myself one someday...

someday....

I think in the late 1800's, the US Mint folks took more pride in the art of
producing nice coins than at any other time. The Morgan dollar dies, if I
recall correctly, were soaked in acid (pickling solution) to produce a
frosted effect, and then polished to make the fields shine. This could have
been done to other dies. I just wish there were peace dollars where the
same level of effort had been expended in producing a beautiful coin.



IF

What is a cameo finish?
 

"Phil DeMayo" wrote in message
ups.com...
Michael wrote:

The three requirments below would apply to the unc versions of modern
commems.

Would they?

Do they receive multiple strikes?

Yes.

Are they struck from specially prepared polished planchets like proofs?

Specially prepared is a fuzzy term. Not working at the mint, I can't be
certain about how much polishing the planchets receive, however, examining
the coins would indicate that to the extent that planchet scratches matter
in the final coins, modern commemorative planchets are more finely cared for
than 1950's proof planchets were. Modern proof planchets are likely more
highly polished.

I am under the impression that they prepare the dies the same
then sand blast them with fine granuals to give them the matte finish.
So technically it costs more to make the UNC versions that the proofs.

How so?

Proof dies are also sandblasted to achieve the cameo finish. The fields
are highly polished, the dies chromium plated to extend die life and
each die is used to strike a limited number of coins before being
retired or refinished.

Uncirculated commemorative (and silver eagle) dies are blasted with fine
particles. It was my understanding that modern proof dies are laser etched.

Do you have any proof that all of the above (and more) is done with the
unc dies. If not, how can they "technically" cost more than proof dies?

Anything more than a speculative answer on this one is impossible unless you
are the mint's accountant. FWIW, I believe the chrome plating would put the
modern proof dies over the top.

The UNC Marines dollars is no doubt a matte proof.

Well, that 's up for debate.

The argument started in 1998 when the Mint came out with the Kennedy
Collectors Set which contained an unc RFK commemorative dollar and a
Matte Silver Kennedy Half Dollar.

Packaged side by side it was obvious to most that both coins had the
same finish and some dealers began hyping the unc RFK commem as being a
matte proof. Of course, the finish on that silver dollar was no
different than any other modern commemorative silver dollar.

You can call it anything you want (and possibly be wrong)....but the
Mint simply refers to them as "uncirculated".....not matte proof.

That's probably a reasonable answer. Still, the finish on a modern
commemorative is quite different than that on a coin meant for circulation,
and to collectors who care about the difference some distinctive
nomenclature is probably worthwhile. For my part, I want to acquire a matte
proof eagle. If / when my collecting budget permits me to, I'll compare it
to a modern commemorative and give my thoughts on the finishes.

You, being a dealer, may already be able to give a first hand comparison. I
would be interested in hearing you compare and contrast the coins.

A matte proof buffalo nickel would also be good for comparison, since it's
composition is the same as the outer layers of a modern commemorative half.


IF

What is a cameo finish?
 

lagos Fool wrote in part:

You, being a dealer........

I'm not a dealer.

What is a cameo finish?
 

Of course, the finish on that silver dollar was no
different than any other modern commemorative silver dollar.

Phil is right, the finish on modern commems has been "matte' since
1994. There have also been some regular issue mattes, notably the
5c coins in the 1994 and 1997 Coinage and Currency sets and the
$1 coin in the 2001 C&C.

The "satin" finish on 2005 Mint Sets are also indistinguishable from
some of the matte coins.

The grading services react in different ways to this dilemma. ICG
notes the difference in $1 sacajaweas on the slab. PCGS calls
the 2005 coins "satin finish" and identifies the '94,'97 nickels and
'98 Kennedy 50c as "special mint set." NGC routinely identifies
the satin coins and the special coins as "SMS." NGC also gives
cameo designations based on appearance, not proof/non-proof
status, to any coin. There are "cameo" business strikes in almost
all the series so designated by NGC based on their cameo contrast,
independent of the method of manufacture.

Regards,
Tom

What is a cameo finish?
 

Well all commems are at least double-struck ... often several times.
Any collector style coin is at least double struck.

I was at the Franklin Mint in 1999 and they were striking some Life of
Christ silver medals. They were striking them 4 times each....which is
a feature that was not advertised.

Its probably easier for the US Mint to just use proof dies then blast
them for the matte UNC finish. These modern commems definitly DO NOT
have the same finish as the UNC coins in the annual coin sets. NO
DOUBTS in my mind. Visual inspections shows that the UNC commems are
minted with much more care than standard UNC sets. The surfaces are
nice a frosty whereas the usual UNC coins sets have a shiney surface.


Phil DeMayo wrote:
Michael wrote:

The three requirments below would apply to the unc versions of modern
commems.

Would they?

Do they receive multiple strikes?

Are they struck from specially prepared polished planchets like proofs?

I am under the impression that they prepare the dies the same
then sand blast them with fine granuals to give them the matte finish.
So technically it costs more to make the UNC versions that the proofs.

How so?

Proof dies are also sandblasted to achieve the cameo finish. The fields
are highly polished, the dies chromium plated to extend die life and
each die is used to strike a limited number of coins before being
retired or refinished.

Do you have any proof that all of the above (and more) is done with the
unc dies. If not, how can they "technically" cost more than proof dies?

The UNC Marines dollars is no doubt a matte proof.

Well, that 's up for debate.

The argument started in 1998 when the Mint came out with the Kennedy
Collectors Set which contained an unc RFK commemorative dollar and a
Matte Silver Kennedy Half Dollar.

Packaged side by side it was obvious to most that both coins had the
same finish and some dealers began hyping the unc RFK commem as being a
matte proof. Of course, the finish on that silver dollar was no
different than any other modern commemorative silver dollar.

You can call it anything you want (and possibly be wrong)....but the
Mint simply refers to them as "uncirculated".....not matte proof.

Now another possibility would be for the dies not to be prepared as
well but say 90% as good then the flaws are covered by the
sandblasting.


Mike Marotta wrote:
Michael wrote:
Aren't Matte Proofs used all the time here? The UNC versions of all
Commems are essentially Matte Proofs.

No. By definition, a proof coin must be (MUST be)
1. struck multiple times.

2. from specially prepared dies

3. on specially prepared planchets.

What is a cameo finish?
 

I stand corrected on the cost. While I firmly believe modern UNC
commes are matte proofs...it probably does cost more for the diemakers
to mask out the mirror surface with masking tape to allow for
sandblasting of the frosted areas. This I have seen in person.


Phil DeMayo wrote:

Proof dies are also sandblasted to achieve the cameo finish. The fields
are highly polished, the dies chromium plated to extend die life and
each die is used to strike a limited number of coins before being
retired or refinished.

What is a cameo finish?
 

I have a website with some coins with a gold plated cameo on each piece
in the collection. see
http://www.proud-collector.com/8/3/collection.aspx for examples.


--------------------------------
http://www.proud-collector.com/


Michael wrote:
Having never really collected certified coins, I would like to know
what is meant by the term cameo when used in the grading of both proof
and mint state coins?