Re: Classifying non-circulating non-legal tender papermoney

[Scottishmoney]

If you want to consider real circulating notes and not notes of somewhat
unusual issue, consider the banknotes of Scotland; Royal Bank of Scotland,
Bank of Scotland, and Clydesdale Bank are still issuing notes which are not
legal tender, are circulating throughout Scotland as medium, and have no
Government sponsorship. They are backed on the faith in the banks issuing
them, and their deposits with Bank of England as a guarantee.

Hong Kong also has a number of banks, three or four which continue to issue
their own distinctive notes, one Bank of China is owned by the Chinese Govt,
the others are public corporations.

Dave
"Garry" > wrote in message
m...
> We are trying to determine a way to classify non-government, non-legal
> tender banknote issues and would appreciate hearing opinions.
>
> Recently we received this comment from Alexander Ganse on this question
> ..."To combine serious currency with bogus issues in one and the same
> catalogue (www.numismondo.com), without clearly distinguishing them into
> categories, results in the danger that some users will not take the entire
> catalogue serious."
>
> Alexander Ganse runs the World History website
> http://www.zum.de/whkmla/index.html and has linked to several pages on
> www.numismondo.com. He makes a good point and as a result we are trying to
> find a way to better distinguish these notes from
> government/state/provincial legal tender issues. Many of these
micronations
> exist only as a website and have no legal status. We have chosen to
include
> them in the catalog because they are collectible items and in some cases
> examples of these notes are hard for collectors to find.
>
> Some examples of these issues are listed below.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Garry Saint, Esquire,
> IBNS, LANSA
> Webmaster http://numismondo.com
>
> Examples:
> Alaska-Russian American Company http://numismondo.com/pm/aka/
> Jason Islands http://www.numismondo.com/pm/jas/
> Herm Island http://www.numismondo.com/pm/his/
> Hutt River Province http://numismondo.com/pm/hut/
> Khakasiya http://numismondo.com/pm/kaz/
> Landreth http://www.numismondo.com/pm/lan/
> Padania http://numismondo.com/pm/pad/
> etc.
>
>

[Padraic Brown]

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:16:51 -0400, "Scottishmoney"
> wrote:

>If you want to consider real circulating notes and not notes of somewhat
>unusual issue, consider the banknotes of Scotland; Royal Bank of Scotland,
>Bank of Scotland, and Clydesdale Bank are still issuing notes which are not
>legal tender, are circulating throughout Scotland as medium, and have no
>Government sponsorship. They are backed on the faith in the banks issuing
>them, and their deposits with Bank of England as a guarantee.

Sorry I'm seeing this late, but the Scottish situation is interesting.
I didn't know they weren't legal tender, though. How is it they can
issue them, then? More to the point, how popular are they in Scotland?
England? [Clearly they are extremely popular in Ebayland!] How do
Scots view this situation? Why isn't there a move to make the
situation more regular - or is there?

As Scotland moves towards greater independence, will the Scottish
government in some way begin to back these notes (as presumably
England backs the BoE notes)? How long would the exchange equivalence
last if the two systems became separate?

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

[Scottishmoney]

"Padraic Brown" > wrote in message
> Sorry I'm seeing this late, but the Scottish situation is interesting.
> I didn't know they weren't legal tender, though. How is it they can
> issue them, then? More to the point, how popular are they in Scotland?
> England? [Clearly they are extremely popular in Ebayland!] How do
> Scots view this situation? Why isn't there a move to make the
> situation more regular - or is there?

The only protest have been very occasional challenges in sheriffs courts on
what qualifies as legal tender. The general consensus have been that it it
whatever is accepted by the majority of the population. They do make up the
great majority of the circulating paper medium of exchange in Scotland, in
fact are universally accepted in Scotland. In England there is no
obligation to accept the Scottish banknotes and some shopkeepers will resist
taking them and cannot be forced to accept them.

>
> As Scotland moves towards greater independence, will the Scottish
> government in some way begin to back these notes (as presumably
> England backs the BoE notes)? How long would the exchange equivalence
> last if the two systems became separate?
>
> Padraic.

I think the bigger threat to continued Scottish banknote issues will be the
possible introduction of the Euro into Britain. Even in the event the two
nations divorce themselves, in all likelyhood the £ will have gone the way
of the £SD anyway and the play money from Euroland will reign and exchange
in both countries.

Dave


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[Padraic Brown]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 06:51:20 -0400, "Scottishmoney"
> wrote:


>The only protest have been very occasional challenges in sheriffs courts on
>what qualifies as legal tender. The general consensus have been that it it
>whatever is accepted by the majority of the population.

Interesting! A different solution to over here, where there is a
standard of what has to be accepted!

> They do make up the
>great majority of the circulating paper medium of exchange in Scotland, in
>fact are universally accepted in Scotland. In England there is no
>obligation to accept the Scottish banknotes and some shopkeepers will resist
>taking them and cannot be forced to accept them.

Do some English merchants take them? Are merchants along the border
more likely to accept them, in the way northern New York merchants
accept Canadian dollars?

>> As Scotland moves towards greater independence, will the Scottish
>> government in some way begin to back these notes (as presumably
>> England backs the BoE notes)? How long would the exchange equivalence
>> last if the two systems became separate?

>I think the bigger threat to continued Scottish banknote issues will be the
>possible introduction of the Euro into Britain.

Hm. How popular is the notion of Eurofying the UK or even just
Scotland?

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

[Scottishmoney]

"Padraic Brown" > wrote in message

> Do some English merchants take them? Are merchants along the border
> more likely to accept them, in the way northern New York merchants
> accept Canadian dollars?

Many english merchants will accept them, many but certainly not all. Our
very own Note.Boy had experiences with this during a recent foray into
Yorkshire. I have seen very few instances where American merchants accepted
Canadian $, at Niagara Falls, and then in Sault Ste. Marie Michigan, where
it seems like lots of Canadians shop in the grocery stores as a tax haven.
On the other hand I can spend US $ anywhere in Canada, provided I will
accept only Canadian $ in change as is the rule in the places I have done
it. Recently the Canadian $ has appreciated considerably against the US$,
it is now 77¢ for a Canadian $, but a year or so ago it was in the low 60¢
range.
>
> Hm. How popular is the notion of Eurofying the UK or even just
> Scotland?
>
> Padraic.

Perhaps a bit less popular than the notion of Eurofying has been in Denmark
or Sweden. Many merchants in the larger cities willingly accept Euro cash
in transactions, it is good business, but otherwise the general public
rather seem against the idea. The Pound has a long and proud history and
even survived the trauma of two World Wars, and decimalisation in 1971. So
it is a bit of an institution which I don't see going away unless something
dramatic happens.

Dave

[Darren]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:42:48 -0400, Padraic Brown
> wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 06:51:20 -0400, "Scottishmoney"
> wrote:
>
>
>>The only protest have been very occasional challenges in sheriffs courts on
>>what qualifies as legal tender. The general consensus have been that it it
>>whatever is accepted by the majority of the population.
>
>Interesting! A different solution to over here, where there is a
>standard of what has to be accepted!

It is perhaps more interesting than that, the only legal tender in
Scotland are the one, and two, pound coins. No bank notes are legal
tender in Scotland, and this includes those issued by the Bank of
England.

>
>> They do make up the
>>great majority of the circulating paper medium of exchange in Scotland, in
>>fact are universally accepted in Scotland. In England there is no
>>obligation to accept the Scottish banknotes and some shopkeepers will resist
>>taking them and cannot be forced to accept them.

I haven't had a note refused for some time. You get the occasional
strange look but no more than that. I should say at this point that I
live in England.
>
>Do some English merchants take them? Are merchants along the border
>more likely to accept them, in the way northern New York merchants
>accept Canadian dollars?

It's not the same distinction. Scotland is not a different country(!)

>>> As Scotland moves towards greater independence, will the Scottish
>>> government in some way begin to back these notes (as presumably
>>> England backs the BoE notes)? How long would the exchange equivalence
>>> last if the two systems became separate?

Scottish Government... <s******>

>
>>I think the bigger threat to continued Scottish banknote issues will be the
>>possible introduction of the Euro into Britain.
>
>Hm. How popular is the notion of Eurofying the UK or even just
>Scotland?

Some schools of thought (OK, it's just me) think there is a greater
probability of the UK accepting the US dollar in place of the pound
and rather than the Euro. It comes down to whether the UK has a
European economy or not. Of course if it were agreed that we could
have the Queen on the paper money, sure, no problem.

Darren

[Scottishmoney]

"Darren" > wrote in message

> It's not the same distinction. Scotland is not a different country(!)

Tell that to a Scot, rather to his face.

>
> Scottish Government... <s******>
> Darren

I believe one could take serious exception to the last statement in your
message, but for the mere fact that the Scottish Parliament has done
absolutely nothing beyond appropriating some £400.000.000,00 for the
construction of their new parliament building. Aside from gold plated
priveys and sumptious lounge chairs in their new domicile they have
accomplished practically nil for the Scottish nation.

Sad, but they set out with the aim of devolution, but the end result maybe
the opposite as people get fed up with their excess and lack of affirmative
legislation on behalf of Scotland. I have seen polls in the press that have
suggested this is causing some discord amongst voters whom were previously
in favour of having a Scottish Parliament.

Have a looky at this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3129822.stm

Dave

[Padraic Brown]

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:24:51 -0400, "Scottishmoney"
> wrote:

>
>"Darren" > wrote in message
>
>> It's not the same distinction. Scotland is not a different country(!)
>
>Tell that to a Scot, rather to his face.

Quite.

>the Scottish Parliament has done
>absolutely nothing beyond appropriating some £400.000.000,00 for the
>construction of their new parliament building. Aside from gold plated
>priveys and sumptious lounge chairs in their new domicile they have
>accomplished practically nil for the Scottish nation.

Sounds like they're doing what Government does best: steal and spend
money on its own behalf. Sad indeed.

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

[Darren]

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:04:43 -0400, Padraic Brown
> wrote:

>On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:24:51 -0400, "Scottishmoney"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Darren" > wrote in message
>>
>>> It's not the same distinction. Scotland is not a different country(!)
>>
>>Tell that to a Scot, rather to his face.
>
>Quite.

Done it. It really isn't a problem, other than with a vocal minority.
In fact I had to listen to a lecture, by a Scotsman, as to why
devolution was going to be a bad idea (this was a few years ago)

Maybe I know the wrong kind of Scotsmen...

I wouldn't go as far to say Scotland is part of England, but I be
interested if anyone is planning to follow Scotland's progress at the
Olympics next year, or England's for that matter.

Thanks
Darren

[Padraic Brown]

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:07:46 +0000 (UTC), Darren
> wrote:

>On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:04:43 -0400, Padraic Brown
> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:24:51 -0400, "Scottishmoney"
> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Darren" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Scotland is not a different country(!)
>>>
>>>Tell that to a Scot, rather to his face.
>>
>>Quite.
>
>I wouldn't go as far to say Scotland is part of England,

Though you just did! "It's not a different country" = "It's the same
country", in case you're wondering.

> but I be interested if anyone is planning to follow Scotland's progress at the
>Olympics next year, or England's for that matter.

I don't know. Are they planning on sending separate teams, then? I
suspect the Scots and the English would follow their progress with
some interest. Why? Do you think they wouldn't?

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

[Darren Turnbull]

"Padraic Brown" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:07:46 +0000 (UTC), Darren
> > wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:04:43 -0400, Padraic Brown
> > wrote:
> >
> >>On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:24:51 -0400, "Scottishmoney"
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>"Darren" > wrote in message
> >>>
> >>>> Scotland is not a different country(!)
> >>>
> >>>Tell that to a Scot, rather to his face.
> >>
> >>Quite.
> >
> >I wouldn't go as far to say Scotland is part of England,
>
> Though you just did! "It's not a different country" = "It's the same
> country", in case you're wondering.

I never said Scotland was part of England. You're getting your England,
Great Britain, United Kingdom, British Isles, British Empire, Wales,
Scotland, Ireland/Eire/Irish Free State, Northern Ireland/Ulster/Six
Counties confused.

The 'country' is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
United refers to the Act of Union a couple of hundred years ago, doesn't it?
This joined Scotland and England, of course the Kings of England were from
Scotland a hundred years before that and from Germany a hundred years after.
It's really all rather simple ;)

Just don't think it's as simple as Scotland being part of England, that's
all.

>
> > but I be interested if anyone is planning to follow Scotland's progress
at the
> >Olympics next year, or England's for that matter.
>
> I don't know. Are they planning on sending separate teams, then? I
> suspect the Scots and the English would follow their progress with
> some interest. Why? Do you think they wouldn't?

I don't think they've ever sent separate teams, or ever planned to. The team
is Great Britain, wonder if there are any people from Northern Ireland in
it... confusing don't you think? Of course The football (soccer) teams are
England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, there is no Great Britain or
UK football team. It means that there has to remain a Football Association
for the various 'countries' and some form of league. This doesn't apply to
atheletics, although I've just wondered whether football is played at the
Olympics and where the GB team would come from...

And there are still no banknotes in Scotland that are legal tender (nor from
Northern Ireland for that matter)

Thanks
Darren

>
> Padraic.
>
> la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
> ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

[Scottishmoney]

"Darren Turnbull" > wrote in message
news:bncahn$b43
> I never said Scotland was part of England. You're getting your England,
> Great Britain, United Kingdom, British Isles, British Empire, Wales,
> Scotland, Ireland/Eire/Irish Free State, Northern Ireland/Ulster/Six
> Counties confused.

Gees, your British and you left out...

Isle of Man, Guernesey, Jersey, Alderney, Rockall, the Kingdom of Fife, the
Isle of Wight, Lundy, Cornwall, Sealand(had to through that in for laughs:)
Vauxhall, the Isle of Bernera, and most importantly the West End Girls of
London.

Mygees, nah trah an' quote me some obscure locations here in these 'Merican
States whay don'na yah?

> And there are still no banknotes in Scotland that are legal tender (nor
from
> Northern Ireland for that matter)

BoE 10/- and £1 notes were legal tender in Scawttyland, that was until the
demise of the 10/- note in 1969 with the intro of the 50p and the £1 note in
the 1980's. Now nothing is.

Northern Ireland is a mess currency wise, and otherwise too as we all well
know. I think one of the banks prints fivers, but the other three do not.
Euro notes are accepted readily there, my sis remembers spending them in NI
when she was there last year. I asked her to save me some NI quid, but not
being the obedient younger sis, she did not of course.

Dave

[Padraic Brown]

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:53:44 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Turnbull"
> wrote:

>
>"Padraic Brown" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:07:46 +0000 (UTC), Darren
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 15:04:43 -0400, Padraic Brown
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:24:51 -0400, "Scottishmoney"
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>"Darren" > wrote in message
>> >>>
>> >>>> Scotland is not a different country(!)
>> >>>
>> >>>Tell that to a Scot, rather to his face.
>> >>
>> >>Quite.
>> >
>> >I wouldn't go as far to say Scotland is part of England,
>>
>> Though you just did! "It's not a different country" = "It's the same
>> country", in case you're wondering.
>
>I never said Scotland was part of England. You're getting your England,
>Great Britain, United Kingdom, British Isles, British Empire, Wales,
>Scotland, Ireland/Eire/Irish Free State, Northern Ireland/Ulster/Six
>Counties confused.

You said it "wasn't a different country". That can only mean a limited
number of things. UK/GB/etc. notwithstanding.

> confusing don't you think?

Not especially.


Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

[Darren]

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:52:52 -0400, Padraic Brown
> wrote:

>
>You said it "wasn't a different country". That can only mean a limited
>number of things. UK/GB/etc. notwithstanding.

So what is a country then, by your definition?

>
>> confusing don't you think?
>
>Not especially.

I think so...

>
>
>Padraic.
>
>la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
>ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

[Darren]

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:44:54 -0400, "Scottishmoney"
> wrote:

>
>"Darren Turnbull" > wrote in message
>news:bncahn$b43
>> I never said Scotland was part of England. You're getting your England,
>> Great Britain, United Kingdom, British Isles, British Empire, Wales,
>> Scotland, Ireland/Eire/Irish Free State, Northern Ireland/Ulster/Six
>> Counties confused.
>
>Gees, your British and you left out...

Actually I'm English ;)

>
>Isle of Man, Guernesey, Jersey, Alderney, Rockall, the Kingdom of Fife, the
>Isle of Wight, Lundy, Cornwall, Sealand(had to through that in for laughs:)
>Vauxhall, the Isle of Bernera, and most importantly the West End Girls of
>London.

Lindisfarne, Shetland Islands, Sark, Sicly Isles, Isle of Dogs(!), the
Bigg Market on a Saturday night, although that is almost another
planet!

>
>Mygees, nah trah an' quote me some obscure locations here in these 'Merican
>States whay don'na yah?

Mmm... let me see, every where gets a little obscure after Virginia,
New England and Pennsylvania... but after a little thought Guam,
Midway, Samoa, Puerto Rico and one I learnt from school Kingman Reef
(great name) Of course then there's that other place with the Austrian
King.

>
>> And there are still no banknotes in Scotland that are legal tender (nor
>from
>> Northern Ireland for that matter)
>
>BoE 10/- and £1 notes were legal tender in Scawttyland, that was until the
>demise of the 10/- note in 1969 with the intro of the 50p and the £1 note in
>the 1980's. Now nothing is.

So would it be correct to state that the BoE One Pound Note was the
last bank note to be legal tender in Scotland?

>
>Northern Ireland is a mess currency wise, and otherwise too as we all well
>know. I think one of the banks prints fivers, but the other three do not.
>Euro notes are accepted readily there, my sis remembers spending them in NI
>when she was there last year. I asked her to save me some NI quid, but not
>being the obedient younger sis, she did not of course.

I think Northern Ireland has a few other more pressing problems than
it's banknotes. But that sister of yours... cuh!
>
>Dave
Darren

>

[Scottishmoney]

"Darren" > wrote in message
> >Gees, your British and you left out...
>
> Actually I'm English ;)

Poor thing, we'll pray for you. :)

Dave

[Padraic Brown]

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:56:21 -0400, "Scottishmoney"
> wrote:

>
>"Darren" > wrote in message
>> >Gees, your British and you left out...
>>
>> Actually I'm English ;)
>
>Poor thing, we'll pray for you. :)

Aye, it is our Christian duty to pray for the less fortunate. ;)

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

[Darren Turnbull]

> >"Darren" > wrote in message
> >> >Gees, your British and you left out...
> >>
> >> Actually I'm English ;)
> >
> >Poor thing, we'll pray for you. :)
>
> Aye, it is our Christian duty to pray for the less fortunate. ;)

Protestant prayers I hope.... it's a little close to our annual burning of
the Catholic ritual...

>
> Padraic.
>
> la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
> ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

[Scottishmoney]

"Darren Turnbull" > wrote in message
news:bnh02e$ou7

> Protestant prayers I hope.... it's a little close to our annual burning of
> the Catholic ritual...

Guy Fawkes is still being roasted, some 398 years later? You'd have thought
he would be ashes by now.

Dave

[Darren]

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 13:01:25 -0500, "Scottishmoney"
> wrote:

>
>"Darren Turnbull" > wrote in message
>news:bnh02e$ou7
>
>> Protestant prayers I hope.... it's a little close to our annual burning of
>> the Catholic ritual...
>
>Guy Fawkes is still being roasted, some 398 years later? You'd have thought
>he would be ashes by now.

I think it must be a Scottish thing... what would I know!

Mind you I'd have thought they'd have come up with dipping him in
batter and deep frying him by now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/654750.stm


:)

[Scottishmoney]

"Darren" > wrote in message >
> Mind you I'd have thought they'd have come up with dipping him in
> batter and deep frying him by now.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/654750.stm
>

You think that is bad? Try Texas where they deep fry Oreo cookies, and
worst of all deep fried turkeys. Dozens of people a year are seriously
injured or even killed by turkey friers.

As bad as it is, all I can say is... blood pudding - an Anglish invention.

Dave


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[Darren]

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:56:36 -0500, "Scottishmoney"
> wrote:

>
>"Darren" > wrote in message >
>> Mind you I'd have thought they'd have come up with dipping him in
>> batter and deep frying him by now.
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/654750.stm
>>
>
>You think that is bad? Try Texas where they deep fry Oreo cookies, and
>worst of all deep fried turkeys. Dozens of people a year are seriously
>injured or even killed by turkey friers.

Deep fried turkey!!! Wow. Those crazy 'mericans...
>
>As bad as it is, all I can say is... blood pudding - an Anglish invention.

Cuisine... now that's an English word to right?
MMmmm... black pudding... mmmm...

>
>Dave
>
>
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>

[Scottishmoney]

"Darren" > wrote in message
>
> Cuisine... now that's an English word to right?
> MMmmm... black pudding... mmmm...
>
People here criticise the British for drinking "warm" beer. I can't tho,
cause I like mine "cellar cool" too, not freakin frozen to numb out the bad
taste of 'Merican brews. But then I drink Euro or Canuck brews exclusively.

Dave
"We should hash it out at the Pub"


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[Jim]

"Scottishmoney" adds....

>But then I drink Euro or Canuck brews exclusively.<

Now "that's" the most sensible thing you've posted in a month of
Sundays........8^)

Welcome back and for the 2nd time tonight...Sláinte!
Always here for my fellow syngraphist or oenophile.
--=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=--

[Scottishmoney]

"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> Now "that's" the most sensible thing you've posted in a month of
> Sundays........8^)
>
> Welcome back and for the 2nd time tonight...Sláinte!
> Always here for my fellow syngraphist or oenophile.
> --=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=--

Welcome back to the world, there were worries about you SoCal types. Me
thinks if I were you there, I would be kicking back a few brews shared with
the firefighters o' course:) I remember the living in the SF area during
the Oakland Hills fire back in 1991, and thinking that it just may take out
my place in Walnut Creek if it kept going. No fun. So best of luck to you,
an' pray for rain.

Dave


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[Ned Flanders]

> We are trying to determine a way to classify non-government, non-legal
tender banknote issues and would appreciate hearing opinions.

In some parts of the world it would be classified as toilet paper and used as such.

Cheers,

Ned